The talent level of the individual Beatles

I’m going to go against the grain here a bit and not argue, as some people have done, that the Beatles were not all that as a band. But I do take a slightly contrarian stance. Here’s my thesis (aka, the TL;DR version):

John and Paul were first-rate singers and songwriters, and that was all that was really needed for them to succeed. Paul was/is a great bass player. John, George, and Ringo are/were good but not masterful musicians, but their idiosyncrasies actually were beneficial to the Beatles’ early sound. After the band became just a studio band around 1966, the musicianship became fairly irrelevant.

OK, a few notes on the individuals (descending in order of overall talent):

Paul. Since I have mostly only praise for him, I doubt there will be much controversy. He’s the only one of the Beatles who was/is truly a grandmaster on his main instrument, the bass. He also plays other instruments very well. Whether he or John was the better vocalist is simply a matter of opinion. I give Paul the edge. Paul’s songwriting is both a strength and a weakness. At his best, he is one of the greats, but he also wrote a lot crap that started to drag down later Beatles albums, and his solo stuff doesn’t do a lot for me. I like a small handful of songs.

John. Great vocalist and songwriter. I’ve never heard it argued that he was particularly good at any instrument. It’s no coincidence he mostly played rhythm guitar. John’s taste level in his solo career was better than Paul’s but a lot of it is pretty dry to me. Again, I like a small handful of songs.

George. I rather like George’s singing while with the Beatles, and I am fan of several of his songs (including “Don’t Bother Me,” which tends not to get noticed). I also think that he was an idiosyncratic guitarist whose playing was essential to the Beatles’ sound when they were, you know, a band that did concerts and stuff. In that sense, he is certainly worthy to go down in pop music history as an important guitarist. But I don’t think he was technically great, and I’ve never heard any evidence in the form of music to give me that impression. Further, he did not do the famous solo on “While My Guitar Gently Weeps”; that was by Eric Clapton, who was uncredited on the White Album. That just blows my mind. Both things. The fact that George would not do the solo on his own song, and the fact that Clapton was not given credit, which strikes me as dishonest, as though everyone involved was fine with having people think it was George’s work. As for George’s solo material, it has never grabbed me, which surprises me, as I think his songwriting for the Beatles proper was rather innovative, if not always completely successful. George deserves a slap on the wrist in heaven for the awful 80s cover “I’ve Got My Mind Set on You.” Horrible.

Ringo. No one argues that Ringo is technically a great drummer, and he freely admits that himself. But here again his idiosyncratic sound (partially due to playing left-handed on a right-handed kit) was an asset to the Beatles when they played live. I also like Ringo’s vocals, and the Beatles utilized them effectively. As for solo material, I probably like Ringo’s stuff best of all, as he has only a few songs I like, but I am more enthusiastic about them than Paul’s or John’s. I would say “It Don’t Come Easy,” which he wrote himself, is better than any solo song by the other three. Ringo was probably the least talented of the Beatles overall, but he certainly leveraged what he had very effectively.

By the way, when I say “idiosyncratic” above, I don’t mean that the playing was weird. What I mean is that the playing had unique qualities based on limitations that make the sound unique and good. While George’s playing wasn’t masterful in the way the playing of a session musician who can just play anything on the spot is, it’s immediately identifiable. Early Beatles songs (contrary to many, I like the period up to and including “Help!” the best) would not be as good with blazingly skilled guitar solos.

OK, that’s my take. Thoughts?

Why does this topic sound familiar…

But I do agree with you, that the Beatles were immensely talented songwriters. Not just in their experimental, post-Revolver days either – writing a catchy 3-minute pop song is much harder than you think.

As musicians, though, they’re nothing special. Anybody could have played their songs just as well as they did. Ringo certainly doesn’t get the respect he deserves, but he’ll never be mentioned in the same breath as John Bonham, Keith Moon, etc. George is completely overrated as lead guitarist; and as for Paul & his “grandmaster” bass playing, I simply don’t hear it.

I figured someone had to have done this before!

I could be wrong about Paul on bass; it’s my perception based on my limited knowledge of bass playing, my ear, and what others have said.

Octarine said in the other thread, too:

Matches up with my thoughts exactly.

Paul’s mastery of the bass was less about technical prowess, and more about melodic inventiveness (without sacrificing what’s good for a particular song).

I agree with your overall assessment.

Question:What does it mean to play drums “left-handed”?

I don’t think that John, Paul and George get enough credit as harmony singers. From This Boy to Yes It Is to Because, these guys could harmonize at a Beach Boys or Mamas and Papas level.

Good point. And, they could do it WHILE playing their instruments (in concert, or sometimes in the studio, especially early on). Both the other groups you mentioned generally had at least one person, often more, JUST singing. (That was a key difference between the Beatles and the Stones as well, though of course the Stones weren’t particularly adept at smooth vocal harmonies.)

Did anyone ever not know that it was Clapton’s solo on “While My Guitar Gently Weeps”? He may not have been credited on the album, but somehow it rapidly became common knowledge- I don’t remember how.

Mike Love doesn’t count!

Yes, I think that was poorly phrased too. Starkey is left-handed, but he played a drum kit set up for a right handed player. That is, he used his right foot for the bass drum, left foot for the high hat, high hat to the left of the snare, floor tom on his right, ride cymbal on the left and crash on the right.

It was certainly never a secret. I knew Clapton played the solo before I had even heard the song. It’s deceiving to point out that Clapton wasn’t credited on the record; no one was credited on the record. Not the fiddler on “Don’t Pass Me By,” not the sax players on “Savoy Truffle,” not the strings and brass on “Martha My Dear,” not Yoko for her vocal cameos, not even the Beatles themselves except by having their pictures on the sleeve.

Interesting that there are rarely threads about the relative talent of other top-tier rocks bands.

  • How are Pink Floyd as individual musicians?
  • How are the Stones as individual musicians?
  • How are Fleetwood Mac as individual musicians?

etc. I think this comes from - well, what does it come from? Is it because the Beatles went from “boy band” to top tier rock band in the eyes of the public over their arc? Is it because Ringo is like Charlie Watts (but without Watts’ jazz cred) - i.e., one of the last pre-big drums rock drummers, and because George is not a put-it-out-there blue-rock Guitar Hero?

The bottom line is that the Beatles made the music that has established them as the top of the rock pantheon. So their individual talents, to paraphrase Lincoln’s line about how long a man’s legs should be, were sufficient enough for them to achieve that.

Why is this topic one that is: a) brought up a lot; and b) leads to long discussions?

Good points, WordMan. I think it comes down to some things Mark Lewisohn wrote in the introduction to Tune In. First, the Beatles were and remain sui generis. Nothing before or since has been like them, and we continue to struggle with that underlying fact, trying to compare and contrast with other bands that seem like them. Second, it seems likely that they accomplished what they did not because they were extraordinary musicians, but because they were extraordinary people. And finally, they did something that is hard to appreciate at a distance, and which may never happen again:
[QUOTE=Mark Lewisohn]
The Beatles repeatedly married cutting-edge with immense mainstream popularity, when for almost anyone else these are mutually exclusive, and … they ditched their winning ideas each time the world raced to copy them.
[/QUOTE]
I think we all struggle with an internal prejudice that says that to do what they did, virtuosity had to be an ingredient, and if virtuosity wasn’t involved, then somehow what they did must be diminished.

I agree with what has been said here, and would add another question to WordMan’s: for those who question the talent level of the Beatles, what do you think would have been different if that talent level had been higher? How would their songs sound different (or would they have had different songs altogether, and would they have been better or worse)? Are there any songs or bits you can point to and say “That would have really benefitted from a more talented” guitarist or drummer or whatever?

George, in his trial for plagiarizing “He’s So Fine,” claimed on the record that he couldn’t read music and, to his knowledge, neither could the other Beatles. Granted, they’re in a style of music where technical virtuosity isn’t valued, but I’m pretty sure Clapton can sight read. (Paul can read music, but couldn’t early in is career.) John was more of a character than a musician. Ringo had star power and was a well-known fixture of the Liverpool scene before any of the other Beatles.

Thudlow, I believe without proof that they would have been diminished if they had had a virtuoso in the band, particularly on guitar. Without someone trying to demonstrate their awesome chops in every song, the Beatles were able to concentrate on the songs and the sound, not the solos.

I don’t think sight reading has much to do with playing virtuosity. Can you recall where you got the idea that Clapton reads music? I have read everything I could get my hands on about Clapton since 1968, and have never seen a hint that he reads music at all. For what it’s worth, there is really not much music in existence for a blues or rock player to read.

OT- it’d be interesting to see what the notation for a speed-metal guitar solo would look like.

Typing.

It would look like a shitload of dots! :slight_smile:

There are magazines that publish excerpts and whole solos from all kinds of players, including shredders. They always, in my experience, include tabs with the standard notation, and they are for amateur players, not creative stars. But when Clapton was learning to play the blues by copying the three Kings and Robert Johnson, there wasn’t a book of sheet music available.

ETA: Good one, WordMan.