The Terry Pratchett Thread

Cafe Society
101

Actually, I don’t think Vetinari wants Vimes to be the Patrician. He’s really not suited for it; a politician of that sort really HAS to be insanely intelligent, diplomatic, and able to deal carefully with the sort of moronic nobles and guild masters HV has to deal with on a regular basis. If Vimes was in control of the city, actual CONTROL, doing what he thinks is best, he’d have the city in a revolution within a year.

No, I think Vetinari wants to keep Vimes right where he is. Here’s why.

Let’s say Vetinari dies, or is deposed successfully, or is otherwise no longer the Patrician. Can never come back, sort of thing. Vimes is emphatically not loyal to the Patrician, at least not more loyal than he is to the city. If Vetinari went insane and all Snapcase over everything, Vimes would have him arrested and executed.

I don’t think Vimes is supposed to be the next Patrician. I think Vimes is HV’s ace in the hole. Let’s say…Gephardt Sock is the next Patrician, and Vimes is still Duke and Commander and all that. Vimes has enough power in the city to make sure that Sock doesn’t screw things up too badly. If Sock, say, tries to kill Vimes or take away his power, or if he’s too crazy to live, Vimes will destroy him, even if it means civil war.

The interesting thing is, there’s only a few differences between the two Vs. Vimes is an optimist, he’s not as bright or as well-educated as Vetinari (though he’s excellent at thinking on his feet), he is not naturally subtle or conniving. Vetinari uses people; Vimes never would.

And Vimes doesn’t want power. Which would make him an excellent leader, natch.

And if things got really bad, Carrot could always take the throne…if things got to that point.

whew You can tell I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately. :smiley:

102

I’m imagining a plot line where the Patrician is incapacitated, there’s some kind of national emergency*, the people are clamoring for a king, and Carrot gains unwilling recognition as the heir to the throne. Much to our surprise, Carrot declares his intention become king, and starts acting the role of monarch in waiting–thus allowing the jerk side of his personality to come to the fore. Moreover, as it awaits its king, the city starts to see its metaphorical trains run on time: everything starts to become magically efficient, and terrifyingly inhuman. Meanwhile Vimes is building up a real, albeit internal, fury on the sidelines, and makes another Tough Decision: to emulate his ancestor and kill the king for the good of Ankh Morpork.

Just before he kills Carrot, Vimes makes eye contact with the man, and Vimes–along with the rest of us–gains a first and last glimpse into Carrot’s soul. He has played the role of incipient monarch magnificently, and shown the city what a powerful and terrifying concept it is to revert to the rule of man, rather than the rule of law. He nods and gives his assent for Vimes to swing the ax and kill him–and the monarchial idea–for the good of the city. His last words, whispered to his Commander: “Personal isn’t the same as important”.**

*Perhaps a Klatchian flying machine knocks down the Tower of Art.

**If by any chance Mr. Pratchett ever reads or hears of this post, I relinquish any claims of inspiration or co-authorship–because I really want to read a story like this!

103

If anyone could defeat DEATH, it’d be Vetinari. :smiley:

104

Doghouse Reilly:

Shudder…wow, I could see that happening. Cheap jab with the Klatchian flying engine, though. :wink:

Still, I think Pterry MIGHT do it…keyword might. He doesn’t seem to be afraid of killing off semi-main characters, but I don’t know if he has the guts to kill off Carrot.

105

Actually, I think Pterry’s painted himself into a corner with the Watch, much as Tom Clancy did with Jack Ryan. Think about it, Ryan is now President. Where will Clancy take the story from there? The riveting suspense story of the ex president? Nah. Shouldn’t think so.

Pterry has played the storyline of old families and guild memebers and usurpers trying to dispose of Vetinari for too many books now. After the truth, which basically re-hashed that plotline again, it was only natural that Nightwatch took a turn and went back to the beginning. But thinking up a new plot of disposing of Havelock would be tireing. And as Vimes grows ever more powerful, with his dukeshiip and Sybil’s money in effect making him the richest man in A-M, where can the story go from there?

Yes, Doghouse Reilly has an interesting idea. However, I don’t think TP will take Carrot down that road. Mostly because I don’t think Carrot would be stupid enough to try it.

I want more stories about the watch, but I think TP has to make another turn and take the Watch in another direction. How about investigating murders at Unseen University? Someone has a grudge towards the wizards and are killing them of one by one. Think of all the fun we could get from having Ridcully interact with Vimes. With the laibrarian of course being under cover… :smiley:

And I think DEATH and Susan are long overdue for a book.

106

I don’t think I conveyed the point of my imagined plot very well–in my story, Carrot would recognize that the people will elevate someone to be dictator or king, which will be a Bad Thing for Ankh-Morpork. So he takes the reins of power temporarily, and deliberately provokes Sam Vimes into regicide For The Good of the City.

107

Yeah, I got it. I just think that Carrot would head a council, pro temp, after Vimes declined taking on the job. I don’t think he would take on the task himself. He’s much too devious for that. Like Vetenari, he would enjoy neutralizing all the guilds using his surface of innocence, which we get to see a lot of in Jingo.

108

As for the Watch going in a new direction, haven’t they already started doing that in the Fifth Elephant? That’s a Watch story that doesn’t even take place in AM and is only tangentially related to it. And Jingo, too, though less so.

I think we may get more Vimes-as-Ambassador stories, though solving a string of crimes in the city that incidentally have Nothing Whatsoever To Do With Deposing Vetinari…

I had the idea about a year ago of a group of Watchmen trying to get Vimes seated as Patrician. That would work rather amusingly, I think. :slight_smile:

109

Really? As much as I like DEATH and Susan, they did just appear in thief of time not too long ago.

110

Well, Susan did. But DEATH was only in a couple of scenes. I want a full book with DEATH - like Hogfather. Only without Mr. Teatime

111

Posted by The Gaspode:

But Pterry has already written two whole books about Death: Mort, in which Death takes a human apprentice. And Reaper Man, in which Death takes a pre-retirement vacation. And Soul Music introduces us to the next generation of the Death Family: Death’s “granddaughter,” Susan Sto Helit.

112

By the way – does anyone know why, in Hogfather, Susan Sto Helit is living in Ankh-Morporl working as a nanny? Doesn’t she have responsibilities back in Sto Helit? A duchy to rule, or something?

113

Yes, Eric was first published as a comic book. I have a copy of it, bought through www.abebooks.com. Unfortunately, I just checked there and can’t tell you for sure which edition to look for. I’ll have to go home and look at my copy, but it does exist.

114

Vetinari is by far my favourite character - especially after Nightwatch.

I’ve always wondered where Pterry is going with the whole Vimes/Carrrot/Patrician dynamic.

On one side, i agree with Little Plastic Ninja - The Patrician has set Vimes up as a wonderful “counter-power” to the Patricianate. A kind of balancing force should he (Vetinari) ever be removed from office and replaced by anyone without the City’s interests at heart.

I don’t think that necessarily precludes him from becoming the next Patrician, however.

I think we are all guilty of making a bit of a presumption in assuming that Vetinari must die.

Who says he can’t retire?

I could see that (written properly) working. Vetinari retires, Vimes becomes Patrician with Vetinari as a background character he can occasionally (and begrudgingly) go to for advice.

I also think that doghouse is right in that whatever the succession, there will be some kind of show down between Carrot and Vimes.

I’ve a feeling that its more likely that they both unwillingly get sucked into leading different factions (a monarchist and an anti-monarchist) which will lead to some climactic event - possibly Carrot’s death (or exile).

115

Of course, when I said I had a copy of the Eric graphic novel, I would be right if I was talking about Mort and not Eric. Somehow, I managed to confuse the two names when I posted last night.

I wish I could claim I was drunk when I wrote that, but I wasn’t. I was just dumb. As penance, I’ll go off and read those two books immediately.

116

You know, it may be my overactive imagination, but it’s possible he already has.

117

I think it was while reading The Fifth Elephant that I wondered whether Vetinari might be a vampire–but that seems a rather crass avenue to immortality. If he has defeated Death, I should hope it was over a game of chess.

118

Precisely; I don’t think Vetinari would aim so low, as Granny Weatherwax might put it. :slight_smile:

No, he probably isn’t actively seeking out immortality. But I’d bet he’s got a few ideas for when he does see the Reaper…

I’m sure he doesn’t fear the reaper, in other words. :smiley:

119

Vimes as Patrician? ::chuckles:: Man, would THAT ever shake the Guilds up! Not to mention Vimes himself. I can see it working, though. With Carrot as Commander of the Watch. Sorry, doghouse, but I don’t want to see Carrot die. It’s just too enjoyable watching him manipulate the city behind that innocent facade.

Wonder if Carrot and Angua are ever going to acknowledge the fact that they have a relationship…?

120

I can’t see Carrot dying or taking the throne, and I don’t want to see him die. I like him. I certainly can’t see Vimes executing Carrot unless he had completely lost his mind. (Carrot, I mean)

I agree though that Vimes isn’t likely to end up as Patrician…at least…not permanently. I can see him being forced into the role temporarily, getting a taste of what it’s like and being glad when Vetinari resumes the position.

I can see Vimes and Carrot having a confrontation of some sort but I think they’d work it out and Carrot would go back to being Captain of the Watch.