I’m actually going to politely, but strongly disagree :). Both were severely stressed at that exact moment and I think that has quite a bit to do with the success of the Muslim eruption. Institutionally they weren’t senescent or anything, but in military and economic terms terms and in the case of the Persians in particular, politically as well, they were exhausted and stretched thin.
My memories of Cat’s Cradle are sketchy at best. I don’t recall them actively trying to kill each other’s followers. Saddam certainly tried to rub out as many Islamists of various stripes as possible, while Osama’s raison d’etre is the abolition of corrupt, secular, Westernised governments in the Middle East - ie Saddam’s Iraq.
McCabe and Bokonon had some form of shared interest, didn’t they? Saddam and Osama had no shared interest or common goal. If you’re going to suggest that they would have a shared interest in attacking America, I would ask where Saddam’s interest would be in this scenario.
Why would Saddam favour terrorist attacks against the US? That’d only make them angry, and they’d end up attacking him if they found any link. It would cause danger to Saddam’s life and his position as Iraqi dictator, and they’re the things Saddam really cared about.
It is absolutely beyond possibility that Saddam and Osama were working together. They had nothing at all in common.
thanks tam et al.
I know that I’ll get this in my inbox shortly.
:bookmarks thread:
<hijack>
I’ll agree on the stretched-thin idea, but I think there’s a common and incorrect notion that Islam arose in a vacuum of power in the region, and that the Byzantines and Sassanids were unable to fight against the Islamic onslaught because they had become decadent. I don’t see a greater vacuum, or greater insitutional failure, or greater decadence, than had existed for many years. There was quite a bit of life in the Byzantines yet, at least.
If your position is that both Byzantines and Sassanids were caught off balance, especially after the war between them, I’d agree. But I don’t think their position was as bad as has been commonly believed - they were forces to be reckoned with, especially the Byzantines.
</hijack>
Decadence, definitely not. There wasn’t quite a vacume per se, but there was a big fat opening. Byzantine Palestine and Syria in particular were very badly exposed and Persia was very precarious, having not only lost the war, but just gone through a series of post-war royal power struggles ( 8 rulers 628-633 between Khusrau II dieing and the Arab invasions ).
Their position was pretty bad IMHO, but hardly hopeless, I agree. The Arabs didn’t win in a walkover, certainly. A couple of key military victories were needed. But after those couple of victories there were no real reserves or strategic depth to hold up the invasion - Heraclius had to essentially sacrifice territory to buy time and re-establish a strong defensive line. It really was superbly fortuitous timing for the Arabs.
Since he didn’t mention them, I can only assume that Tamerlane is a member of the Illuminati. :eek:
Of course. How else could he have so much informations on so many topics? He uses the Illuminati Central Command Database.
To the OP:
When I said: “you must be joking” I meant it as something like: You can’t seriously find such a ridiculous display of complete ignorance worth any debate.
Of course I forgot by this that for people who are not the slightest bit familiar with the history of Islam it is not so obvious that this whole thing is a complete joke:)
Sowry…
I didn’t went through reading the whole idiocy because such things always tend to work a bit on my nerves (can’t help it; the same counts when the creative rewriter of history and Islam happens to be Muslim).
I see that some others did and made some points, clarifying one and an other (didn’t read all of that either, I trust Tamerlane and other members who already showed often enough to be reasonable good up to very accurately informed on these issues).
However, one other point you can slap the creative author around the ears with :
In propaganda items such as this beautiful specimen, it is always “forgotten” to tell the readers about the (obvious) fact that during the course of history both the West and the Islamic world sought and found eachother to form alliances against a common enemy. Or even against an enemy of solely one the Western nations involved. That happened even during the crusades where Muslims came to use the Franks to weaken their own enemies and vice versa. (And for the Protestants readers: England sought and found in the Ottoman Empire a protector of the new sect, which had of course political/economical backgrounds and goals.)
I would call the most recent example of alliance between West and Muslim world the so called “fight against terrorism” 
It was never “us against the other” as people like the writer of this absolute masterpiece tries to picture it. History never is simplified to “If you are not with us, you are against us”. That is only History Writing Made in USA.
He is also amazing in his datings (and locations) of what he gives the really creative new name " Great Jihad" the First, Second and adding the never heard of “Third”.
I think he remotely heard something about the first and second expansion of Islam and then placed his own locations and datings. Such little sidesteps away from historical truth truly must be encouraged - being a necessity inherent on the discipline - when attempting to creatively rewrite history.
You can also tell the creative author that the obsession “we must defend ourselves against the Killing Muslims” is rooted in Christianity, its way of thinking and its teachings. Seen the fact that Chrisitans think they have the God given right to proselytize by all means (and up to this day keep bothering people who don’t ask for them to come into their nations and bring them even in life danger) because the have the task to “save” all non Christians, the demonisation of Islam was already a fact even before there was speach of Islam. Everything that threatened - and threatens - or formed - and forms - and obstacle to the “Jesus Saves” (I know this is the modern variation) Evangelisation was and is doomed to be the Work of Satan.
You can also point out the obvious fact that if all Muslims on this globe would want and support a Holy War against the West and would want to fight in it, he better would get hidign somewhere deep below the surface of the earth, together with the whole West and the rest of this globe. Because the planet would be destroyed with nuclear weapons long before someone could “win” anything.
You may also tell the creative author with my compliments that he is invited to come over here and lecture his wisdom for making my children laugh. I shall let him be picked up at his frontdoor and be brought back there after his joy-bringing stand-up comedian show. With his own weight in works on Islamic history as a gift from this Jihadist (This for not being accused of cheap copying dear OBL with his really creative idea of opening the gold-giftshops).
You can also tell him that he brought me to the idea to strive for becoming the new Caliph from this day on… And on the way I shall strive for the unification of Sunna and Shia Islam as I am - seen my background and bloodline - in the best of positions to preach that. Now that is some information that should make him shake in his shoes and make him write a whole new masterpiece of Jihad and Doom On The West
Salaam. Aldebaran
also known as The Mad Arab. (let the creative author not forget to mention that for the sake of history writing. It is an important detail to make me be recognized as lLeader of the Third Jihadists.)
If you’re the Mad Arab, do you have any autographed copies of The Necronomicon laying around?
http://www.chaosmatrix.org/library/books/necro_proj/index.html
See my testimony on this thread
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=254325&page=2&pp=30
about the truth behind the Mad Arab stories (Which I never read. Everything written about what is called by you and others “The Necronomicon” and which was in fact named Adipocere is a false invention of my enemies.)
Salaam. TMA.
“Mad Arab” isn’t that a redundancy?
Like “Dishonest Republican” “Greedy American” “Evil Jew” “Beautiful Dane” etc.
In the case of Aldebaran it is truly a necessity to mislead the enemies who seek to discover my real Amazing Nature.
Like in your case the “Beautiful Dane” seems to be a necessity to be able to stay undercover
Salaam. TMA
aw you just blew your cover Aldebaran. You’re not really a Mad as a hatter Arab but merely a Mad Belgian. And there goes my cover, for I of course am not a Beautiful Dane but an Absolutely Ravishing Dane! ;j
Wrong, absolutely wrong…
I really can not say this in the open, so don’t spread the word…
The Mad Belgian disguise is too well played and resounds in the minds of SDMB’ers as I hoped it would do.
As for you hiding behind Ravishing Dane… You don’t come even close to my Shining Mix from which I try to prevent the Most Shining and Most Famous Side from being detected.
Salaam. A
What’s with the Chasidic smilie, O Mr. Ravishing Dane? Is there something else you’re trying to cover up? Or is the kippa just to hide male-pattern baldness?
uh? What the heck is Chasidic? Anything to do with chastity? One smilie is as good as the next. I hope you’re not trying to insinuate that just because it’s Jewish it’s not as good as the others! Because I tell you I will not stand for such blatant discrimination. Support the Happy Orthodox Jewish Man Smilie Liberation Front (HOJMSLF)! Anyway never heard of “male-pattern baldness”? That must be something you have in America. Also I think “ravishing male-pattern baldness” sounds more like an oxymoron than redundancy to me, but of course you’re entitled to your preferences.
;j ;j ;j
Very interesting posts, Tamerlane and lambchops. Thank you.
I can neither confirm nor deny…
By the way something Aldebaran mentioned triggered a memory - Francis I of France actually negotiated a military and commercial agreement with the Ottomans in 1535 when the Ottoman were at the height of their power. He even let an Ottoman fleet winter at Toulon on the Riviera in 1543. Hmmm…maybe there is something to this French Connection afterall. It is now glaringly obviously the French just faked letting this alliance lapse a few years later and have been in league with the forces of reactionary Islam ever since! 
That would be quite an effective undercover conspiracy, considering how the Muslim minority from France’s former colonies has been faring there these days. Those French – they’re sneaky. 
They even almost locked me in the basement of the Centre de Documentation Juive in Paris once, over the weekend - but that’s a tale for another day.
Aldebaran, thank you for your informative post. In fact, thanks to everyone who responded; I hope more people can add to this thing.
The guy who wrote that “report”, Larry Abraham, publishes a newsletter called the “Insider Report.” I haven’t seen it, and don’t want to, but according to his website one may receive twelve issues for something like $125.00. If this guy managed to rope in 2000 conspiracy addicts he would be pulling down $250K per year----I believe I’m gonna go into that business just to sustain me in my retirement.
I’ve had a few words with my sister since starting this thread; she persists in claiming the report is historically accurate and that it is all gonna happen any day now. I take that as a challenge—I’m not gonna let my argument over this crap die.