The threat about niqabs

I’m not “trying to inflict guilt” on anybody. If thinking about the persistence of sexist gender norms in our own society makes you feel guilty—even if nobody else is trying to guilt you with any exaggerations or false equivalences about the severity of sexist gender norms in our society versus some other societies—then that’s your issue to deal with, not anybody else’s.

I’m sorry if you feel uncomfortable about this, but you don’t get to evade your discomfort by trying to pretend that I’m saying something that I’m not.

:rolleyes: If the things I’ve clearly stated look like “gobbledegook” to you, that says more about your reading comprehension abilities than about my statements.

If you were reading more carefully, you’d have noticed that I very definitely indicated, more than once, that I support women having the individual freedom to choose what they want to wear. That applies equally to whether they’re choosing to wear niqab/burqa or choosing not to.

But saucywench, your personal opinion (or anybody else’s) about whether niqab/burqa garments seem “hot” or “ugly” or “evil-looking” or “antiquated” doesn’t have jack-shit to do with the rights of individuals in a free society to choose to wear them or not.

You seem to be having a really tough time here with separating out the fundamental matter of principle—namely, the right of the individual not to be coerced (at least beyond the most minimal requirements such as anti-nudity laws and the like) into following some gender-discriminatory imposed dress code—from your own personal aesthetic and/or xenophobic reactions.

That’s why I initially raised the issue of some more familiar kinds of sexist dress norms in our own culture that got Jackmanii so upset. I think it’s worth reminding ourselves that our support for individual rights involving, say, clothing choices should not be influenced by whether we personally consider the clothing in question to be “normal” and attractive versus “strange” and icky. Or even “ugly” or “evil-looking” or “antiquated”, for that matter.

Whatever “guilt” exists is yours, honeychild.

Having you postulating in all seriousness that there are Western social norms compelling women to get breast enhancements and wear high heels to go out to a pizza joint with their families mostly sparks incredulity that a usually reasonable poster has gone so far off the deep end.*

*there’s a minor quotient of hilarity as well. :smiley:

:confused: First you complain that I’m “trying to inflict guilt” on people who criticize sexist practices of mandatory veiling, and then when I point out that I’m not doing any such thing, you respond by directly trying to inflict guilt on me, for no clearly articulated reason and with a side order of sexist condescension. I really don’t get why this conversation is bothering you to the point of such overreaction.

:dubious: But I didn’t postulate any such thing. The point I was making about “Western social norms”—which, I repeat, I very clearly acknowledged right from the get-go provide far more latitude for individual choice than social norms in a lot of Islamist-extremist societies—was simply that “there’s never a totally bright line between an individual choice and a socially conditioned gender norm or expectation”.

If you insist on misrepresenting that as any kind of claim on my part that women in Western societies are literally being “compelled” to “get breast enhancements and wear high heels to go out to a pizza joint with their families”, then as I said, you’re just flailing at a strawman.

Great! Sounds reasonable.

Maybe some people don’t notice, and others just don’t care about certain “gender norms,” because once again…the woman is not being forced to submit to them.

No, and no.

If you’re a mind reader, why bother with fora.

People respond that way because it’s true.

I disagree! There is a big, bright line between having freedom of choice, or being forced to submit to something.

What is “a lot?” Have you spoken to all these women, or are you just speaking for “the women” again?

No adult in the USA is being literally forced to wear a niqab, either. The police won’t enforce it, and any adult can legally leave their family if their family insists on it.

Of course people in some social circles may feel forced into it by their family members and/or neighbors. What Kimstu is pointing out, quite accurately, is that people in other social circles may feel forced into constricting and even physically damaging clothing of other types by their family members and/or neighbors; and that many people tend to notice this social pressure when it takes a form unfamiliar to them but not to notice it when the uncomfortable clothes seem normal to them.

The reason women can’t go topless in public (which is societally enforced in the USA even in most areas where it’s technically legal) is because of the remains of Christian modesty requirements. Christian missionaries went around the world telling women (among other things) to cover up their bodies. We no longer think of modern Western dress standards as being religiously influenced, but they are.

And as far as the OP: I had also noticed objections from some people, before the epidemic, to anyone’s covering their faces in public; not just in situations where genuine security reasons might arguably require showing one’s face, but just while walking down the street. And I had also noticed that the same objections weren’t being made about face masks. Some people object to face masks because they want the freedom not to wear them – but this is comparable to wanting (far more reasonably) the freedom not to wear niqab; it’s not comparable to wanting to deny others the ability to do so. Limbaugh seems to object to face masks on the grounds that they remind people that the epidemic exists; if that’s comparable to anything, it would be to an objection to anyone wearing clothing that appears to make a religious statement – but the people complaining about niqab don’t appear to complain about distinctive clothing worn by Old-Order Mennonites, or about crosses worn as jewelry or Christian religious imagery and slogans on t-shirts.

There are multiple reasons to legitimately object to any requirement to wear hijab. And nobody in this thread is supporting any requirement to do so. But some of the objections to people choosing to wear hijab are indeed due to religious prejudice; and an insistence that while the breasts must be covered the entire face must be visible may well be from religious prejudice. Sometimes of course it’s just a matter of ‘everybody ought to bare what we’re used to seeing, and conceal what we’re not used to seeing!’ – a sort of force of habit and discomfort with the unusual.

Lucky you! You don’t have to make a choice between the two, and you have the freedom to choose neither option.

Silly girl! Of course you can. Unlike other women, you have the choice to wear what you want.

Happy medium between modesty and freedom, attractive and comfortable…I’ve got something just for you. It’s called a scarf. Wear one of those if you want, and you can avoid making stupid, flippant comments like, “Can I just wear a hijab?”

Actually, I hate scarves. And I think it would be culturally inappropriate for me to wear a hijab, despite them not having the features I hate about scarves.

But that’s not really the point. No one is forced to wear niqab or fake boobs or a hijab in the US. It’s true that both men and women are often required to cover their crotch, and women are often required to cover their bosom in the US, but these don’t feel very oppressive to me. (Nor does a cultural requirement to cover your hair, fwiw.) And I agree that a cultural requirement to cover your face -because modesty- IS oppressive. BUT … I don’t see outlawing those garments as especially helpful to those being oppressed. Quite the contrary.

I’d be curious if the opinion of women who grew up in cultures that required them to be covered, however.

This is overstating the case. I don’t doubt that Christianity influenced prudishness, but covering the breasts is widespread convention that is not solely attributable to Christianity.

And I think this is false equivalence, or false cultural relativism. We use the face to communicate, to express emotion, all human interaction involves picking up subtle cues from facial expressions. Unlike any other part of the body, covering the face carries a distinct message of prohibition or limitation in interaction with other human beings.

WOMEN IN NIQAB SPEAK: A STUDY OF THE NIQAB IN CANADA

I expect that most of you will be surprised as to who in Canada wear a niqab, the various reasons why they wear a niqab, how they feel wearing a niqab, and what they think about exposing their faces for security reasons.

Deleted duplicate message.

I agree with this. I was joking about the hijab, because I think that “you must cover a woman’s hair” is pretty comparable to “you must cover a woman’s breasts”. But I, too, draw a line at covering the face, and think that’s fundamentally different.

Here’s the study referred to in the CCMW’s overview linked to above.

http://ccmw.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/WEB_EN_WiNiqab_FINAL.pdf

They’re really quite practical. In most Arab countries, traditional dress for men is not much different other than the face covering. For example, Omani men wear a disdasha and one of several variants of a turban or hat. These people may be repressive, but they aren’t stupid. A burka is actually much more comfortable in hot climates than, say, pants and a shirt. Of course, whether the garments are ugly is rather in the eye of the beholder.

I take no position on whether the practice is unfair to women.

https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/whatcanibring/items/medical-masks

TSA will require you to temporarily remove your mask for identification purposes when going through airport screening.

Iranian man arrested over so-called “honor killing” of his 14 year old daughter. She was beheaded by her father with a sickle while she was sleeping.

Maybe she forgot to don her niqab before she fled the house.

What on earth has that got to do with women wearing niqab in the USA or Canada?

It ties into the bigger theme of the oppression of women in certain cultures.

The perpetrator’s in jail on a murder charge. And from your own cite:

So that hardly sounds like general cultural acceptance to me.

Plus which: not only are we not talking about murder, which people of all religions and cultures unfortunately occasionally go in for. We’re not even talking about women being forced to wear niqab, which nobody on this thread is in favor of. We’re talking about women in USA and Canadian culture choosing to wear niqab. That somebody’s in jail for a murder that he gave a religious excuse for has nothing to do with it. I could give you cites of Christians giving religious reasons for having murdered their children, if you want them.

Well let’s see what they say for themselves.

Here’s a link to a study commissioned by one of Canada’s leading feminist organizations for just that purpose.

For folks who don’t have the time to download and read it in full (a riveting
75 pages that is well worth the time), here are some paragraphs from it that get to the gist of it.

The bottom line is that women in Canada who wear a niqab do so of their own free will because they want to for various reasons.