The "toxins weaken you" bar trick (or somethin like that)

Factual Questions
1

Couldn’t figure out how to explain this in the title line.
I’ll explain this “trick” then ask my question. So here it is: There’s a trick I learned long ago and it has never failed to work when I try it on someone new. Generally it’s in a bar setting. You have a person hold their arm straight out at 90 degrees and tell them to hold it as stiff as they can while you a use your hand and apply a little downward force on their forearm. They of course are able to hold it pretty steady but of course there’s a little give. Well then they put their arm down and you have them hold something that is bad for them over their heart (a pack of cigs, their beer, whatever). You tell them to hold the arm out just like before and resist you pushing it down after telling them that the toxic substance pressed against their heart weakens the body and they won’t be as strong. Works everytime… apply same amount of force on forearm and it goes down easy (or sometimes goes up because they are trying so hard to resist that they start to raise the arm).

What exactly is happening in this situation? Are they weaker because you’ve told them they will be? Is it somehow related to the other arm being in a different position because they have to hold their hand on their chest? My guess is it’s the anticipation or something involved with resisting the downward push when they’ve been told what will happen. Any ideas?

2

how do you know it is the same amount of force? if you don’t use a scale you don’t know.

could be psychological.

could be arm fatigue in what is a pretty weak position to start with.

3

Anyone can push down anyone’s else’s arm under the conditions described.

Given the basic principles of leverage, together with some aspects of human anatomy and musculature, it is next-to-impossible for someone with an out-stretched arm to resist a downward force applied on the forearm area by someone who really wants to push the arm down. The closer to the wrist you apply the downward force, the harder it is to resist.

When I say ‘next to impossible’, I’m just allowing for extreme exceptions. If you got a champion bodybuilder on a good day stretching out a short, stubby arm, and someone really, truly weak trying to apply the downward force well, yeah, maybe the guy could keep his arm up. But within normal ranges of human size and scale, the downward force will work every time.

So, the real question is not ‘Why does the arm yield to the downard force the second time?’, it’s ‘Why does it not yield the first time?’. The answer is that the first time, you don’t try as hard and you don’t apply all your strength. You apply such a gentle force that the guy has no trouble keeping his arm up.

Whether you do this intentinally or unintentionally is a separate question. But that’s the answer, regardless.

This ‘test’ isn’t a test of anything, but it crops up a lot in the realm of pseudo-science, bogus ‘therapies’ and other examples of pre-glued anti-thinking. Because it’s visual, TV people like to feature it, never bothering to explain to viewers that it’s rubbish.

If you care to look up ‘applied kinesiology’, you’ll see this ‘arm test’ applied quite a lot and offered as evidence that AK actually works. It doesn’t. The ‘arm test’ also crops in demos to do with any irrational garbage ostenisbly pertaining to the removal of ‘toxins’ from the body (good game: ask the practitioner to name two of these so-called ‘toxins’, to explain their precise toxic effect, and to explain how the detox actually works). The ‘arm test’ is also found in some parts of the ‘Build better self-confidence’ realm, where the recitation of mantras or affirmations are supposed to make you physically stronger

The fact remains: if you really wanted to push the arm down the first time, you could. But where’s the fun in that?

4

Well, ianzin, I actually agree with almost everything you said. I know it’s bullshit. I disagree when you say that I’m pushing harder the second time. It’s on the other person’s end that it happens. I mean, if I hadn’t thought of that years ago that it was the person pushing down doing it harder the second time, I wouldn’t have been so careful about doing it real gentle both times. Not that it really matters at all, I was just wondering what people’s thoughts on it were.

5

Shig, it’s not just a question of pushing harder. There are lots of factors involved: how much effort you apply, where, how suddenly or how steadily, your own mental or emotional expectation, the other person’s preparedness and expectation, any residual fatigue from the first time (although I’d expect this to be negligible), presentation , confidence and conveyed expectation (people subconsciously deliver whichever result they understand to be the ‘right’ or ‘normal’ one, or the one that’s the most entertaining, ‘impressive’ and worth talking about).

There are also various social psychology factors involved. Who wants to go away being able to tell their friends, ‘Hey, we tried this thing in the bar… and absolutely nothing weird happened’. It’s more fun if you get a ‘strange’ result, and talking about it afterwards gives people a chance to feel remarkable or important.

I suspect the single most significant factor is your expectation and whether you want it to work or not, and the same for whoever you are doing it on or with. Please note that in my previous answer I did refer to ‘intentionally or unintentionally’.

6

OK. Well said, thanks. Well regardless, it cracks me up that people are so astounded by this. Just a fun little thing to do for fun to people… of course until they turn out to be a person who completely believe that it IS in fact a result of their core energy being harmed or some such BS.

7

Clearly this is proof that kinesology works.

8

This trick is used by some alt med types to diagnose allergies. Another reason to hate them.

9

Is there any relation between this and the trick where you can ‘levitate’ someone on a few peoples fingers after somehow ‘hypnotizing’ them? I’ve done it on people, but don’t have a clear idea why or how it works.

10

Well, you’re not levitating them, you’re lifting them. Six people could easily lift a 120lb woman with their fingertips.

11

Please don’t confuse “Applied Kinesiology” with Kinesiology. One is a valid field of study, the other steals the name to cover pseudoscience.

12

Panama Jack is correct, which is why I was careful to refer to applied kinesiology.

Kinesiology (when the term is being used correctly) is a perfectly valid science pertaining to anatomy and movement.

‘Applied kinesiology’ is irrational, non-scientific quackery, and just one more instance of pre-glued anti-thinking.

13

Hence my quotation marks.

I realise this. To explain more clearly the trick I describe works much like that described in the OP. Initially it fails to work, until the ‘magic / hypnotism’ happens.

14

When I was younger (perhaps 14 or 15) my mom took me to a chiropractor she went to regularly, and he did this exact same ‘test’ on me (and presumably her on earlier visits) to try and sell her some incredibly overpriced supplements.

Even at that age I knew it was a scam and I told her right there not to buy them because I wouldn’t take them (which make the ‘doctor’ mad). I later tried to explain how it worked and that it was all a scam but she didn’t get it and kept going (I of course refused to go back).

it still makes me kind of mad to think about it.

15

I have both been the doer and the receiver of this trick.

You can resist when you’re holding something like an apple to your heart, but seem to not be able to when holding something like cigarettes or alcohol there, like Shig said.

Of course I don’t believe there’s something about the goodness or badness of the items causing the difference. But I don’t know what is. And it sure doesn’t feel like I’m pushing down harder, or the person is pushing down harder on my arm.

16

I was going to ask about this very thing, because my mom’s “voodoo doctor” does this all the time.

17

It is possible to prove that it’s nonsense using a simple double-blind test. However, as with all these things, the fact that one can prove that it is nonsense won’t stop it enduring and spreading. ‘You can’t rationally argue out what wasn’t rationally argued in’.

Get your quack therapist to name two substances, one that weakens the body and one that strengthens it. Just by way of example, suppose that the first is rat poison and the second is a sample of the therapist’s own herbal remedies or vitamin supplements or whatever. Find a way to present these so that outwardly, you can’t tell which is which e.g. preparing samples of equal size and weight and wrapping them in opaque containers or cloth bags or aluminum foil, or putting samples of equal weight in small plastic kitchen containers lined with brown paper. Obviously, you would have to agree the protocol with the therapist so that he or she accepts that the wrapping does not interfere with the purpose of the experiment.

The containers are mixed at random in a process unknown and unseen by either you or the therapist and numbered 1 - 10. One is selected at random and you hold it or touch it or hold it over your heart (according to whichever procedure the therapist normally employs). The therapist uses the ‘arm test’ to determine whether the substance in the container is a good substance or a bad one. This verdict is recorded. Repeat with the remaining nine containers.

Therapist is allowed as much time as he or she wants to make each determination, and is allowed to change her mind at any time concerning any container. However, all ten verdicts must be recorded before any of the containers are opened.

When the experiment is over, the containers are opened and the contents of each are compared with the therapist’s verdict.

The therapist will score no better than guesswork, because it is guesswork. What this shows is that the experiment, the ‘arm test’, only ‘works’ when you know what the outcome is supposed to be.

18

I’ve given and received this test on several occasions, usually applying to flourescent lighting. I have tried to compensate for my pushing the persons arm down as to make it equal, but I’m no scale. What I’ve always wanted to do is to get say, a 5 lb. weight and suspendend it from the persons’ arm so as to eliminate my bias. Have you or anyone you know of ever done something like this, and if so, what was the result?

19

get a fish scale and hook it on the person’s finger and pull on it. i think 5 lb. is way more than the force of your push.

20

Sorry, I didn’t know. Will keep that in mind. :slight_smile: