The United States of America

The BBQ Pit
1

Okay I’ve had it with you. I’m a Canadian who has always admired you and given you the benefit of the doubt in almost all of the issues facing you on the world stage since I was old enough to appreciate what America generally stands for going back to the Kennedy years.

But now you’ve lost all my respect. That includes the administration, the congress and the US media. How the fuck can you guys live with yourselves?

Let me explain. Back in 1988, Canada and the US signed the Free Trade Agreement amidst Canadian objections based on sovereignty issues. Canada had held out till the end for a final dispute resolution mechanism which the US finally agreed to.

Well since then, the US lumber industry has had some major objections to the way Canadians handle the sale of our lumber products primarily based on the initial cost of accessing timber for lumber companies. They claimed we were subsidizing Canadian timber. Initially we had a short term agreement whereby our own provincial government would apply stumpage fees on our forest companies but that ended in 2001, whereupon the US slapped tarrifs on our lumber, throwing a lot of my neighbours out of work.

Based on the FTA , this issue was to go through dispute resolution, and if the US failed to prove their case that we were subsidizing lumber then the tarrif money would be returned.

Well it is now 2005, and after 4 years of lower panel rulings, IIRC which all were in favour of Canada, The Extrordinary Challenge Committee finally ruled in favour of Canada. The tarrif holdback now stands at 5 billion dollars. In terms of the impact on our economy, that is on par with another country holding back $50 billion dollars from the US.

What was the US response? Fuck you ! We are not giving you back your money. We are not going to accept this final ruling. We want you to come back and renegotiate.

I follow the American news outlets on tv and hear nothing about this.

The American ambassador to Canada chides us for being emotional .

Why the fuck did we go through with four years of bullshit for? An agreement with America isn’t worth the paper its printed on.

Going back to the very beginning of the FTA when many Canadians were worried about sovereignty, it is interesting to not that their are Americans who are challenging the NAFTA agreement(successor to FTA) based on US constitutional issues. WTF? Canada is now subject to the US Supreme Court?

A bargain with the United States of America is a bargain with the devil.

2

This surprises you?

Sorry–I do understand what you mean. It’s sheer arrogance and it’s intensely frustrating. But my cynical self says that’s the way it’s always been and that’s most likely the way it’ll always be, unless someone gets the balls to stand up and say, “We’re not taking this sh*t from you anymore.”

3

I’m slightly confused here…Are you saying the US should pay the cost of the impact on the economy or the tariffs that were assayed? Also, are you condemning every single person in my country based on the actions of one industry and one administration?

4

Just ask any of the tribes who signed peace treaties with the US in the 19th century for confirmation. It’s not like this is anything new.

But the current administration does seem to put expediency, greed, and self-interest above all else – not that that’s anything new, either; I’m sure anyone could come up with a million cites to administrations of any political persuasion doing exactly the same thing.

Expecting governments to make the moral choice is, IMO, an exercise in disappointment.

5

Monty, I thought I was quite clear that I was pitting the administration, the congress and the US media. I wasn’t even pitting the US lumber industry which isn’t party to the agreement, and I’m definitely not pitting Americans in general who are largely ignorant of this issue thanks to the negligence of the US media.

6

Mama Tiger: I’m sure one could say the same thing about Canada, also. Come to think of it, didn’t some of the First Nations win some cases in court against that particular government?

7

Monty, I’m only calling for the removal of tarrifs and the return of our money.

8

My point exactly, Monty. I don’t like the way governments do this, but it seems to be a universal trait among U.S. administrations, and probably Canadian (and virtually all other) administrations as well. Governments by definition are put in place to watch out for the interests of their own citizens, and if that means screwing anybody else, including your nearest and dearest neighbors, there’s usually no hesitation in doing that. I don’t like it, I don’t agree with it, but I’m enough of a realist to recognize that that’s the way the world works.

Yeah, the idealism of my youth has been pretty well subject to a scorched earth policy in the ensuing years.

9

Oooh…you’re just stomping your hooves, aren’t you?

It’s silly to get worked up about the minutae of trade agreements which people well above your station are dealing with. You don’t have one whit of understanding about internation trade and treaties. You can’t see the forest for the trees. It’s people in a class way way above you playing a chess game… I kind of wonder who the winner will be. Fascinating stuff.

10

Was that intentional?

11

Monty, and Mama Tiger, I have no doubt that the British had hstorically abrogated agreements with some of the tribes previous to the 20th century in Canada. but a cite for a more modern agreement with another nation having an issue with Canada’s performance is far more relevant.

12

I was simply pointing out that abrogation of agreements when it’s expedient is a long-standing historical trend with governments. Hence my going back so far for an example, to show that it’s nothing new and should therefore be no cause for surprise. I don’t object to your outrage; I hate it, too. But if it’s something that has been going on for possibly hundreds of years, it shouldn’t come as a surprise when it happens again.

13

And to think that a free trade agreement with the US (or lack thereof) is a minor talking point in our elections (NZs).

14

WTF? This is something that Canadians have been following with interest for more than a decade – where do you get off assuming ignorance?

“Silly?” Feck off-- I live in B.C. An illegal tariff of 27% on our biggest export has had a serious impact here. People get worked up about it. This is billions of dollars we’re out of pocket. It’s had a significant impact on our economy, and driven up the cost of buying a new home. We’re not talking about minutiae here. We’re talking about abiding by the conflict resolution process.

Why the hell should we be obligated to bite our tongues while our trading partners ignore the rule of law and fuck us on a deal?

15

I still think we should slap a steep export tax on natural gas and watch the Americans suddenly discover that NAFTA is maybe a good thing after all. It’s not like it’s feasible for them to replace the NG we supply from anywhere else.

The general response in this thread is a bit puzzling, though. “We stole $5 billion from you? Don’t worry your little head about it. Bad things happen.” :confused:

16

Since the USA is not respecting the treaty, I’m all for putting a very heavy export tariff on oil against them.

17

Don’t forget electricity and like Gorsnak said, natural gas also. Basically all forms of energy.

18

I find it interesting that Bush appointed someone from South Carolina to be Ambassador to Canada, to begin with. (I suppose it beats sending someone from Georgia where the softwood industry is even larger).

19

Thus far Wilkins is far less obnoxious than Celluci was. In any event, he’s just the messenger.

20

It is certainly true that governments have, for a long time, made a habit of reneging on or ignoring treaties and contracts signed with weaker parties. But when it comes to the most rank hypocrisy in the modern era, American government attitudes to free trade must rank near the top.

The US constantly mouths the rhetoric of free trade, and puts considerable pressure on many countries to open up their markets to US goods and services. But, as the OP’s example shows very clearly, certain local American constituencies are able to put enough pressure on the US government that all the lofty rhetoric about free trade is cast aside in favour of protectionism.

A similar situation occurred in the late 1990s for Australian and New Zealand lamb producers. The United States suddenly announced in 1999 a bunch of tariff rate quotas on imported lamb, effectively restricting the amount of lamb Australian and Kiwi farmers could export to the United States by placing a 40% tariff on any lamb over the (very low) quota amount.

Not content with hobbling the Down Under lamb exporters with such a high tariff, the US government at the same time announced a three-year, $100 million program of subsidies to US lamb producers for “productivity improvements, market promotion, animal health and domestic purchases.”

Not only do incidents like this show US hypocrisy, but the massive size of the US economy means that their effects are extremely disproportionate. In a massive economy like America’s, lamb producers barely register a blip on the radar screen. It is a tiny industry, not just compared to other non-agricultural industries, but also compared to agricultural enterprises like beef cattle, hogs, chickens, etc. Americans just don’t produce that much lamb.

By comparison, the lamb industries in Australia and New Zealand are important parts of those countries’ economies, and while the US tariffs and subsidies were too insignificant to raise any cries of hypocrisy from US voters, they were significant enough to have a large detrimental effect on Australian and New Zealand lamb growers, and agricultural exports in general.

And as if all that weren’t enough, the tariffs and subsidies not only cost US taxpayers money, but also prevented those of them who enjoy lamb from having access to the best lamb in the world, or at least forcing them to pay through the nose for the artificially inflated prices.