The US Christian Military?

Great Debates
61

[QUOTE=IntelSoldier]
…Scumpup- “No preference” on a dogtag has never been interpretted by anyone I know to be anything other than Atheist. Do you know anyone who thinks it means “Any religion will do”?
[/QUOTE]

The point of listing a religion on a dogtag, as I understand it, is simply so the folks that find your body on the battlefield know what your religious preferences are for disposal of your remains.

I knew non-atheists in the military who put down “No preference” for their dogtags. Now, they generally weren’t regular church-goers either, but definitely weren’t atheists. They just didn’t care what religious ceremony was held for them (if any) should they be killed in action.

I also knew atheists who did list a religion solely for the benefit of their parents, etc.

62

The unfortunate recruit who provoked the sergeant’s tirade answered “none” when asked what his religion was. After the sergeant got done belittling him and cursing at him, he turned on the rest of us and clarified, in case we didn’t understand, that there were NO atheists in HIS army. If you wouldn’t specify a particular religion, you were listed as “no preference” but you were not permitted to have no religion.
Somewhere around here I still have a set of dogtags where the enlisted man running the tag-maker misspelled “Byzantine Catholic.” Even then, I wasn’t a believer; I listed it because it seemed like the poor sergeant had already had a rough day and I knew my parents would have that flavor ceremony anyway if I was KIA.

63

It’s funny I noticed this thread today, because my co-worker just returned from his tour of duty in Iraq with his Reserve uint, and just a few hours ago was telling us how unbelievably “Christianized” his army experience was. Primarily lots of mandatory group prayers and stuff like that; he didn’t go into much more detail.
I’m a pretty religion Christian but it still makes me uncomfortable; forcing non-believers to pray is just insulting to them and God at the same time!

64

[QUOTE=villa]
Problem is, suing the army (successfully) is a very difficult thing to do. Courts historically have been very wary of second guessing the military on its internal policies.
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Still, at least it gets the issue out into the open. It throws attention on the problem. Poor Hall’s life isn’t going to be easier, though. :frowning:

65

I’m not opposing the suit at all. I think the plaintiff has balls to bring it, and I think the pass the military has traditionally been given by the courts is a mistake. I just don’t expect it to go anywhere.

66

[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
Y’all have gotta stop being so offended by everything. Military life is just full of pointless rituals, what’s wrong with a few more?
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Well, turn the situation around and imagine the shit that would hit the fan if an officer or NCO started bad-mouthing Jesus or mocking the boots’ Christian beliefs.

67

[QUOTE=robby]
The point of listing a religion on a dogtag, as I understand it, is simply so the folks that find your body on the battlefield know what your religious preferences are for disposal of your remains…
[/QUOTE]

I thought these days the military simplyreturns the remains to the family and the family is in charge of funeral plans. :confused:

68

[QUOTE=alphaboi867]
I thought these days the military simplyreturns the remains to the family and the family is in charge of funeral plans. :confused:
[/QUOTE]

There’s also the issue of last rites for those who aren’t quite dead yet.

69

Gen. Petraeus implicated in promoting pro-Christian handbook aimed at military personnel.

70

“Implicated”?

He wraote a typical feel-good endorsement for a typical rah-rah-pep-talk book that happened to have a religious theme. When it blew up in his face, he backed off. (That is the worst case scenario–where he actually was aware of the hoopla about the Religious Right taking control of the military.)

Of course, it is also possible that he really was not aware of the depth of the issue among some service personnel. (Remember, the majority in any conflict is far more frequently oblivious to the concerns of the minority than actually hostile to it.)

Claims that Petraeus was actively promoting the agenda of the Religious Right needs to be supported by far more evidence than that he happened to write a nice review of a subordinate’s book (even if he actually read or understood it.)

71

[QUOTE=Shodan]
This one is from an atheist. If you want to talk about this case, fine - go ahead. If not, fine - we can wait and see if this suit will get thrown out like the previous one did.

Regards,
Shodan
[/QUOTE]

OK, let’s talk about it.

If–and I stress if–such things are going on the the armed services, they cannot and should not be tolerated. One of the reasons for a military presence (at least the way I understand it) is the defense of people whose basic human rights are being denied. It would be extremely hypocritical if the military charged with this duty was itself guilty of infringing upon the basic right to the free exercise of one’s personal religious beliefs–or the absence of same. Discrimination based on religious beliefs is no less an abomination than discrimination based on race, and cannot be tolerated in the service of a “free” country.

In any case, even the hint that such things are going on deserves better than just simply dismissing it as idle complaints.

72

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
Sorry, but I don’t believe you. It was an overtly religiose and explicitly Christian culture when I was in. I didn’t dream it. Maybe your apologetics will sound convincing to people who haven’t served but I know what it was like when I served and I can’t believe you never saw it. It was too commonplace. maybe you just never appreciated how the culture seems to non-Christians. Are you telling me you never witnessed or participated in the mandatory group prayers in Basic? That some of us are making it up that we got assigned shit details for not attending services, that my CC called us heathens and dared us to sue? hell, there was at least one CC when I went through Basic who was an ordained minister and I know for a fact he proselytized recruits and browbeat those who weren’t interested.
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Erm… I did Army basic in '89, and religion never raised its shaggy head at all. There was absolutely no group prayers, mandatory or otherwise, nor any recognition of our fath or lack thereof. It’s like others said… Sunday was the day for barracks cleaning, something like 5 hours of it, and if you went to services then you escaped 1 hour of it. Nobody was ever harassed for it, and running a floor buffer is a pretty low-intensity detail. In fact, since the drill sergeants escorted the trainees to services, a clever atheist could catch an extra half-hour nap by employing the old “tightening the blankets underneath my bunk” gag.

It was a little different in a regular unit… people definitely spoke and acted as if they assumed everybody was a Christian, but there were no threats nor intimidation if you weren’t. Certainly there was no concealing of religious services offered by the Chaplain which were invariably Christian, but again not mandatory. I did get a sense that if you went out of your way to be contrarian to others or belittle their beliefs, you could find yourself socially out in the cold, but there was far too much professionalism for any of that give and take.

I certainly do believe that some of this may have changed in the modern military due to the fact that it’s in the middle of a war that is, regardless of what some would like to think, heavily tinged with religious overtones. Likewise there is some deterioration of the professional NCO corps as more and more exit the service under the strain of the current wars. Certainly things may be changing now, but I can’t say as I’m not in there anymore.

I have also read that the Air Force is getting quite spooky about the unspoken yet growing Christian cadre within their ranks; that there is some heavy interaction between the Air Force academy and the New Life megachurch which are both headquartered in Colorado Springs. Again, not a member of either one, so I can’t confirm directly, but here’s an illuminating cite.

73

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
Are you telling me you never witnessed or participated in the mandatory group prayers in Basic?
[/QUOTE]

We did those services during ceremonies and whatnot, sure. But no one was ever threatened into them. Pressured by the fact that nonparticipants were a minority, sure, but that’s what happens when you’re different. You feel the pressure to change.

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
Things weren’t as bad after Basic, but there was still a thick, overtly Christian culture. It wasn’t as aggressive (or even threatening) as some of these recent stories suggest it may be now. it was more thoughtless than hostile, but it existed. I didn’t imagine it.
[/QUOTE]

I’m not saying you imagined it. I’m saying you’ve blown it out of proportion. I’m saying it’s more thoughtless than hostile. And like I said, there’s assholes in every crowd. If you were cursed at and belittled over your religious preference, I believe you. I just think you’re unfairly extrapolating your anecdote.

[QUOTE=Czarcasm]
Unless you were in the U.S.A.F. when I was, you have no idea what went on.
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We’re talking about today’s military, of which I’m a part, not the USAF when you served.

[QUOTE=Czarcasm]
I guess it was just a coincidence that the bathrooms needed cleaning during church service, and I suppose the listing of barracks that had 100% church attendance on the community board didn’t mean anything, either.
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[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
That some of us are making it up that we got assigned shit details for not attending services, that my CC called us heathens and dared us to sue?
[/QUOTE]

There were at least 5 or 6 different services in Basic. How could latrine cleaning NOT be scheduled during one of them? I don’t doubt that you were assigned latrine cleaning duty…but when I got back from church, I had to clean the other latrine while the Catholics (or whoever) went to their service. Then they had to move all the (heavy) wall lockers across the room and sweep behind them. Every detail is shitty and everyone does one or two or three. You might have had to do one more than average, but that’s what happens when you hang around the barracks for an extra hour.

74

Well, the bottom line is that the military wants mindless Christian soldiers because Christianity is a Death Cult. A Christian religous culture makes for malleable, unthinking, dogmatic killers (crusaders)- Christians kill easily and die easily in the name of the Lord, Amen

75

[QUOTE=Hampshire]
That’s par for the course for most believers I know. Twist the words till they justify your actions in your own mind. Whatever let’s you sleep at night I always say.
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What twisting? As far as I know, the Commandment says “Though shall not murder”. I think “Though shall not kill” is the translation the Catholic Church uses. But from what I have read and heard, murder is the correct word.

76

[QUOTE=devilsknew]
Christianity is a Death Cult
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Cite?

77

[QUOTE=IntelSoldier]
Cite?
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Pick a Gospel, pick a Saint…pick a Martyr pick a Christian Military leader over the past 2000 years, there have been a lot of them, shouldn’t have to look too far… Christianity is all tied up in Righteous death and killing in the name of the Lord… Nothing has changed… kill in His Name Die in His Name, be all you can be… be a martyr, be a killer, be a hero either way.

78

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
Things lightened up after Basic, but it was all Jesus all the time during Boot Camp.
[/QUOTE]
Are there no Jews in Navy boot camp?

79

[QUOTE=Fear Itself]
Are there no Jews in Navy boot camp?
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Sure, but that didn’t stop the mandatory Christian prayers.

80

I have no trouble believing that murder is the more accurate translation. “Thou shalt not kill” is, I assume, from the King James version and is used by both Catholics and Protestants.

The Ten Commandments are not specifically Christian doctrine. They are from the Old Testament. Altlhough that law specified not murdering instead of not killing, the New Testament generally teaches tolerance and love of one’s enemy.