Actually Dell has dropped its overseas corporate helpdesk (which accounts for 85 percent of its helpdesk business) and is returning the helpdesk operation to America. Dell received scores of complaints from corporate users that the overseas staff were difficult to understand, didn’t offer correct help answers and offered condescending responses.
Bouncer:
I wouldn’t pay more unless the service was actually better-- ie, I got to talk to a live person sooner or the person was more able to solve my problem. Heck, I can undertand a lot of Indians better than I can understand some Texans!
I also wouldn’t pay more unless the service was markedly better, faster, etc (or unless I was billing a client and didn’t really care about the cost :)). I’ve used Dell’s helpdesk (the professional ones, not the home ones…might make a difference), and like all other companies, it was hit or miss. Sometimes you get someone who has a clue, sometimes you don’t. I can’t say I ever had a major language problem, but then I spent 2 years in India so I guess I’m used to the accent. I found their support no better than most other companies…but I also found it no worse. Personally, I think the major decision to move back to the states was more because of all the publicity they were getting for outsourcing to India in the first place…and they simply used help desk complaints (which all companies get all the time) as an excuse. Just my opinion, nothing to back that up with.
-XT
Some things never change (see especially the “THEORETICAL REPRISE” section):
Xitsme
I’m not going to argue with you. You know why? Because I really don’t care that much. My job can’t be sent to China, or done by low-paid foreign labor, so I have nothing to worry about.
One point, if the H1-b’s weren’t paid less than a typical American, why would the companies who hire them go through all the hassle of bringing them over? There are plenty of Americans fully trained in computers who can do the job, and be understandable when you have to talk to them on the phone. My husband works at a large company, and he has to give thick accented immigrants help every single day, and they’re having trouble doing what he could do with his eyes shut.
Oh, and how does everyone feel about Americans in some fields having to train their replacements? Lovely, eh?
Anyhow, I’ve offered my opinion. You (this is a collective you sent out to whoever doesn’t agree with me) can argue my comments all you want, but you’re not changing my mind.
Have a pooterific day!
G.
Aw hell, I spelled your name wrong. Damn it, I knew I should have copied and pasted. Xtisme. There is that right?
lol, yes Gllrnz…XT-is-me. 
Well, I’m not sure what your job is. Certainly my job CAN be done by a lower paid engineer type from another country(well, my job before I started my own company that is). I’ve met several and worked with them…they aren’t exactly scruffy rag-a-muffins (is that the right english word? rag-a-muffin?). Most are VERY well educated and highly trained. Some aren’t. Some have limited english…others speak english very well (like me :)).
I’m not sure what your husband does, again, but from my experience, I’ve had similar problem with home grown technicians and Engineers too. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had to patiently explain something to some 23 year old kid for the 5th time because he just fucked up a router push. In my experience, I haven’t noticed that foreign engineers/technicians are more incompetent generally than their US counterparts. But then, I don’t know what your husband does, or what kind of foreign labor his company is using. Certainly if he/they are getting incompetent workers its their own damn fault…probably because they were trying to save a buck IMO.
I never worry about job security myself. I have no problem training people reguardless if they are 'mericans or ferriners…its all the same to me. I’m good at what I do, and I know it, so I have no worries about job security.
On the larger picture, to me its not a problem if some jobs go over seas. As America pushes forward, new services and business that we haven’t even dreamed of yet (can you say bio-tech?) will constantly be opening up…while older ones, or ones that can be done cheaper migrate overseas. This is a GOOD thing…it keeps the prices low, while still expanding our own economy.
As we lose some job set (like manufacturing) we will GAIN others (services oriented things like technology). Think about it…in the 60’s, there was no inkling of the information revolution and the new jobs and business that this created for the US…if asked at the time, economists would probably have freaked out if told we would lose many of our manufacturing capability to overseas laborers.
Who knows what new markets/services the US will be doing in 2010 or 2020?? Ya, some folks will get hurt. Some will lose their jobs, the jobs that were their livelyhood and the only thing they know how to do. But OVERALL, more jobs will be created, and our economy will continue to expand IMO.
Well, sorry you feel like you have to post and run.
-XT
You’d have to be an idiot to do that. If I were asked to train my replacement, I would simply drag my feet and devote 100% of my work time and resources to finding another job. If they don’t like it, let them lay me off like they were going to do anyway.
“Although the functioning of the world economy appears to create increasingly larger disparities between the various types of economies, the relationship between the core and its periphery and semi-periphery remains relative, not constant. Technological advantages, for example, could result in an expansion of the world economy overall, and precipitate changes in some peripheral or semi-peripheral areas.”
I think most economists agree that technological advantage does result in an increase of the total economy which benefits all. I guess the question is how do you decrease the disparity between the richest and the poorest? To a certain extent, we are seeing it now, as educated service jobs exit the US for poorer countries.
I don’t believe it is realistic to expect that the US should maintain a significantly higher standard of living than the rest of the world without offering some sort of competitive advantage.
From msmith537
I must be an idiot then (I’m sure a lot of folks on this board would agree with that :))…I’ve never had a problem training or teaching someone. But then, I never figured they would ‘replace’ me either.
-XT
Well, excuuuuse us for using logic and reason and arguments when all you wanted was some hand-holding. :rolleyes: I am afraid you have come to the wrong section for that. You might want to try down the hall in the touchy-feely-goody-wishy section. You’ll see a sign which says MPSIMS over the door.
I was always very good at documenting my work and training others to do my job. That way I could pick up and move on without disrupting the business. I’m not sure I would do things that way now though, there isn’t a lot of places to pick up and move on to these days.
Low pay and few benefits deos not equal sweatshop. Many of these places are in violation of the laws of the country where they are located - the NY Times article on the Etch-a-Sketch factory is an example. Why not work towards a five or even six day workweek instead of the false dichotomy of seven day work weeks or starvation? Check out the interviews with some of the workers. They aren’t nearly as thrilled to be working seven days weeks when management isn’t there.
John Mace: While it is true that the goal of management is to maximize shareholder return, it is the purpose of government to make laws to make socially hurtful choices expensive to stockholders. (And management too.) Otherwise there would be no reason at all to pay overtime, limit work hours, etc. It is cheaper for WalMart to hire contractors using illegal aliens - until they get caught.
You misunderstand. Sometimes people are told that they are being laid off, and asked to train their replacement. This happens when a job is being outsourced to a contractor in the US, so it is not particularly an offshoring issue.
I’m with you on H1Bs. I’ve hired some in three different companies. There has never been a salary differential (none of the companies factored visa status into offers) and the decision has always been made on qualifications. As for language, I hired someone once whose English was not all that great - but he went on to invent several new technologies, and become famous in the field. The fact is that our engineering grad schools are full of very smart foreign students, and it would be utterly stupid not to hire them. If we started treating high school kids who get 800s on SATs as well as we do those on the football team, instead of as freaks, maybe the situation would improve.
Maybe. But when they are competing with foriegn labor, who is going to pay the college tuition bills… the shareholders? Ha.
Exporting labor means a decreased standard of living in one place with the hope of a slightly raised standard of living in another without affecting shareholders’ standard of living at all (if anything, improving it).
Of course, if workers dare suggest that this is biased against them they are trampling on the downtrodden rights of the few. I guess we should move to India instead of stay here instead.
Your claim about the purpose of gov’t is debatable. You’d have a hard time finding support for your thesis in the Constitution. But let’s assume that you are correct. One could just as easily argue that restricting outsourcing is damaging to the overall economy, and therefore “socially hurtful”. I believe that most economists would agree with that assessment.
The illegal alien issue is irrelevent to this discussion. Knowingly hiring illegal aliens is (and should be) against the law.
I don’t see why. Citizenship’s benefits are a form of protectionism themselves. Which is why we have so many corporations: the laws we wrote to protect them. They just get bitter when that shoe falls on the other foot and try to relocate to somewhere more favorable.
I’m not sure what you are getting at. I would make a distinction between legal and illegal imigrants. The former should have the basically same rights, short of voting, as citizens.
There is certainly a libertarian argument that we should have completely open borders. I haven’t been able to understand or accept that idea. If that’s what you’re getting at, I’d be interested in hearing your arguments. To me, it is antithetical to the concept of what a country is.
From Voyager
Oh. You are right, I misunderheard you. I’ve met people (especially older telco engineer types) that would never show or teach anything…job security and all that. I’ve never seen the situation you describe above.
I agree with you completely about the sports vs academics thing as well. Until we get our collective head out of our ass and emphasize education over sports, this situation will continue. When I went to college, well over half the students in the engineering classes were foreign. My cousin the lawyer though had nearly zero foreign students in his class. Thats kind of telling…
From Voyager
If they are in violation of the laws of the country they are located, isn’t it up to those countries to enforce those laws?? If they don’t enforce their own laws, why is that the companies fault?
I understand your point about them not being happy about working 7 days a week, but they aren’t slaves afaik. If they really don’t like it, they could always quit I suppose…I’m sure there would be someone willing to work those hours out there.
And thats the key. If there is someone willing to work at low wages for 7 days a week, etc, because its better than whatever they currently have, then the situation will remain the same. However, as a country progresses, as they build more industry and infrastructure and expand their manufacturing, as more companies (and local companies) emerge, labor will become scarse, and companies will be forced to pay more, to give better benifits, to have a safer working environment, etc. If they don’t, their workers will walk and go to work somewhere else. At least, this has been the pattern in the past for most emerging industrialized nations.
-XT
In the Constitution, it might be found in the preamble. But this is more of a statement of where government has been for the past century, starting with things like child labor laws. They are not constitutionally mandated, but are certainly constitutional.
I very much doubt that economists would say that outsourcing is damaging to the economy. Out-sourcing increases efficiency through specialization. It’s more efficient for a small business to outsource payroll, for instance, to a company who can afford to buy good software and keep up with the tax laws then to hire a full time person.
As for illegal aliens - if the greatest good is stockholder return, whyever should a company not hire an illegal alien, assuming he is here already? Abetting a violation of the law by importing them is another story. The law against this is fairly new, and I can’t really see an improvement in the immigration rate due to it. So, why is hiring them wrong? It must be for a social, not economic, reason.
Why don’t some of the same countries enforce anti-piracy laws for IP? Corruption? Lack of resources? All these companies now claim that they will not contract with these places, but only check once a year for an hour. If you buy a TV off the back of a truck from Slippery Lou, who swears he’s a licensed dealer, are you totally innocent? Is the argument that the police aren’t enforcing laws against theft, so it isn’t your responsibility, a good one?
This is called a race to the bottom. It happens in part because unions are illegal in these places. Not to say that unions are always wonderful, but they do tend to level the playing field.
So, 7 days a week work is no problem. Fine. How about workplace safety, which usually goes along with this kind of thing. Is one worker death a year ok because the plant can get faster production without safeguards? One a month? A week? A day? For most of these you can probably find people to take the risk.
But it all doesn’'t matter, does it, since Joe Public gets to pay fifty cents less for his shoes in WalMart. The wages will be low - that is not really the issue. It is more, what are the minimal standards that are moral? How to we move these from lip service to real?