Except that if the tips are pooled, even one busboy/dishwasher/cook per waiter knocks that takehome pay down significantly.
I’m confused by your post. You prefer the Dutch system of tipping but you say they are indifferent to the performance of their job. I wouldn’t tip anything for that kind of attitude. I go to a restaurant for service. Otherwise I would get takeout and enjoy the quiet comfort of my home.
I neglected to post my 2 cents. I prefer tipping as a way to encourage good service. I tip well and bartenders remember that. Case in point. I went to a busy bar last night and there was a flock of people standing around the bar waiting to order. The bartender saw me come in and handed me my drink before I ordered it. What she also probably remembers is that I’m polite. The next thing she’ll remember is that I hand her exact change (with tip) so she doesn’t have to make 2 trips.
Hmm can I just say that mswas is probably the most stereotypical New Yorker in the world.
There are good things in New York, there are plenty elsewhere as well.
Only if you’re eating chicken.
Of course there are, by virtue of it being a huge city with many restaurants, but they’re a minority of restaurants in NYC. I don’t know why people seem to think most, or even a large plurality, of NYC restaurants are really expensive. Most of them are cheap, just like anywhere else. Walk around NYC - even if you just restrict yourself to Manhattan - and keep a log of the restaurants you walk by and how busy they are. Most people aren’t eating at Keens or at the Waldorf. They’re eating at Shake Shack and Sbarros, or if they’re treating themselves, TGIF’s.
As to the percentages involved, I think you’re engaged in pure fantasy if you think waitstaff, even in NYC, get 20% of billable in tips. That’s just nuts. Leaving aside tipout, which in some places will eat a very large percentage of your tips, waitstaff are regularly ripped off by a fairly large fraction of their customers who’ll either not tip at all or tip next to nothing irrespective of the quality of service. Old people are infamous for this, and of course in NYC you’ll get a lot of folks from other countries who don’t realize you’re supposed to tip, and groups sometimes tip low when paying in cash because there’s always a few wannabe free riders (which is why some places add automatic tips on very large groups.) But cheap bastards come in all shapes and sizes. From what I’ve heard as many as a quarter to a third of all customers will simply refuse to tip at all, or will tip a buck on a $59 bill or what have you.
So you’re not getting 20% in the long run. And then you tip out. And if you’re waiter you’re probably not getting 40 hours a week. My sister used to wait tables and if she had a couple of groups rip her off there were nights she made less than minimum wage, since she had to tip out irrespective of the ripoff artists. The really lucky nights only came once in awhile, and it eventually become obvious that temp work was a better short term solution because you just don’t make good money waitressing.
It’s a shitty job. It pays crap. If you work in a really good NYC restaurant you might make as much as a guy working in a union factory job. At most restaurants you’ll make very little.
Has anyone said that? “A lot” ≠ most, a large plurality, or even a plurality at all.
Quoting msmith:
So he appears to be saying that the NYC average is above $30 per person, which would make the average NYC restaurant at least fairly expensive.
I didn’t say “most”. But there are a lot of restaurants where an entre alone will cost $30. Yes, if you want to consider every Sbarros or $8 lunch special then the expensive places are a small %. That’s not the point.
The point is that there is a small percentage of restaurants in NYC where waiters have the potential to make a halfway decent tip wage. Unfortunately this is tempered by the fact that it’s so damn expensive to live in NYC.
I don’t think Maastricht was saying that at all. She said that the Dutch waitpersons are more or less indifferent to the amount of the tip. Some wait staff give good service, and some give lousy service. Just like in the US.
I lived in the Netherlands for two years recently, and IME the average level of service in restaurants was at least as good as it is in the US.
I don’t mind tipping, and I always tip well. But I don’t really think that tipping or its absence changes a good waitperson into a lousy one, or vice versa. Fundamentally, it’s more about a sense of pride in the work one does and a recognition of the responsibility to do it well.
This is all in line with the free market system: those who kiss the most ass will reap the most rewards. (If you like, I’ll throw in Christian doctrine as well: humble thyself and be exalted.)
We’re a domineering and neurotic nation, especially when it comes to the issue of making a living, or letting someone else make theirs. What else do you expect?
Gotcha
To add to my post earlier, I walked into a bar last night I rarely go to and hadn’t been to in months. One of the bartenders came up behind me and asked me where I’d been. People remember good tips and good manners. It’s very common to have my beer waiting for me before I sit down. Everybody likes a little pampering (including me).
No argument there. But IME, this thoughtful treatment of “regulars” or good customers in general also occurs in countries where tipping is not expected/universal.
Personally, I prefer to tip without obligation. The US system (we’ll call it that but I’m sure it happens around the world) really does baffle me. In some parts of Asia, the “tip” is built in to the bill as a “service charge.” You can happily and guiltlessly walk away from your table after paying because you’ve, in effect, already tipped. And not just your waiter, but everybody.
If you have good service or think your waitstaff was friendly, you can always leave more to show your appreciation.
And if the service you received was bad, well yes, you’re stuck with giving a mandatory tip in the form of the service charge but you can always complain, you know? Decent restaurants will do something about it - not charge you for the meal, give you a complimentary meal, give you free dessert, have the waitstaff apologize to you, have the manager come speak with you personally, etc.
If it is relevant to this discussion at all, I am a pretty generous tipper, rarely complain and rarely make unusual requests except to have the salad dressing on the side.
Yes. I’d prefer no friendly welcome from staff on entry to my regular haunts to one which I knew I was only getting as a result of having paid for it in advance.
Have you dined at an expensive NYC restaurant? I have, the bill came to over $816 for 6 people before the tip. Maybe not high-end but expensive compared to my usual haunts, it was Patsy’s . We tipped 20% which comes to about $163. That’s a big tip for one table. But, and this is the point. We were there for over 4 hours, so were most of the other parties around us. It’s not like people pop in for a meatball sub and a bottle of wine and you got a big turnover and you’re raking in thousands of dollars of tips per per night.
I think we need to get rid of it completely and have the wages reflect that. I worked in a bar, but was not dependent on tips. I didn’t have to kiss anyone’s ass either, which, by the way is annoying too. I don’t really need saccharine sweet service. All I want is attention when I ask for it, I don’t need a checkup every 15 minutes. I have heard Europeans say that they always found American restaurants to be literally crowded with waiters. It doesn’t surprise me since it costs the restaurants next to nothing to hire them. What you’d get is fewer, yet more competent waiters. That means not kissing ass, but efficient. That’s what I appreciate, someone who is good at his job.
In restaurants and bars I understand that tipping is important. I am fine with that. What I do not get, and what really pisses me off is things like bellhops and taxi drivers and well, the list goes on and on, right? Where do we draw the line? Should all services be tipped regardless? Should I tip the doctor? The lady at the DMV? At some point, damn near any interaction with a human where money is exchanged can be construed as a service.
I just don’t get tipping taxi drivers. Don’t they get paid enough as it is? If I feel like tipping I will, but please. I don’t see them as falling in the category as “dependent on tips” The worst one is the idea of tipping hotel staff all the time. I am not rich, so I don’t really have much experience, but it is a joke.
This collection of tipped service industries sort of supports my contention that tipping may be originally have been more about impressing your girlfriend/boyfriend or business companions with your wealth and largess than anything else.
I don’t mind tipping but it has always struck me as a pretty silly practice.
You were pointing at a bucket of water in the Sahara in an attempt to discredit another person’s description of it as a desert, is what you were doing.
In the USA, is tipping practiced in fast food establishments like McDonalds, or only where there are waiters involved?