I didn’t cite you because I wasn’t quoting you. The words from my post that you “copped to” as “ostensibly you” were not your words, and I never claimed they were.
I don’t really know how I can make this any clearer to you.
As I said to octopus, it’s because that’s an in-group use.
Set your mind at rest, I’m against all of those too.
:dubious: Oh good. In that case, never mind this whole thread, as far as I’m concerned.
I thought the point of your OP diatribe was that you should be able to run around saying such things regardless of circumstances, in any situation, without being considered a bigot, as long as you personally didn’t mean anything offensive by them.
But you say that’s not what you’re after. So now I’m undecided between “plain old troll” and “just looking for opportunities to post words like nigger, nigger, queer, fag, dike, kike, spic, moolie, hebe, dago, wop, slope, dink, wop, wetback”.
Either way, thanks for the dance, and enjoy the rest of the thread.
My bad. Having waded back through I see that you said “based on your own words” and then launched into a screed.
Being prone to screeds myself and, with the introduction, “based on your own words” I was willing to accept that it was something I said - but didn’t remember - and asked for a cite.
You got me there. They were your words.
Whhewwww
It is very good that you can Google. Now attempt to explain how a word can be good coming from one mouth and bad coming from another mouth without automatically assuming negative characteristics of the “bad” mouth that don’t come down to “the bad mouth must harbour some sort of racism, sexism, genderism, etc.”
If you can do it in your own words you get an extra point - yes, just one because for something so blatantly simple it should be no sweat at all to explain it.
So I’m to assume then that each time you’ve heard them used in real life you’ve vocally objected?
No?
How about this message board?
No?
So you are a valiant defender of proper discourse so long as you only have to apply it in theory?
But why? Say it ain’t so.
.
And yet you go on.
And go on to prove that you didn’t actually read the OP to begin with. Too busy working out the bolding and smileys and stuff?
Neither. Sincerely concerned with the ludicrous emphasis placed on mere words in the face of concrete examples of horrid bigotry that get a pass because they are couched in polite terms.
But swinging at air twice still gives you one more shot.
So you bow out, then keep on in order to call me a troll or someone that likes typing naughty words.
Is that how you deal with people who disagree with you in real life?
“They have an idea I don’t like… I must slag and belittle them and then run.”
It’s funny that you say you are American Indian but got hammered with slurs meant for whites and you say it is a distinction others may not make.
Where I live (and have spent almost all of my life) there were basically two colours white and red.
Growing up I knew exactly one word for Native Canadians - Indians. That was it. I “knew” warriors were called “braves” and eventually I learned that a female Indian was a squaw. I didn’t know that squaw was an insult because I learned it from Indians.
It was the word they used.
Truth is that I knew more “slurs” for white people by the time I was 13 than I did for Indians. All of those I learned from TV.
I knew redskin of course - but I equated it to pale-face. Indians have “red” skin just like I have a pale-face (“red” in quotation marks because they were as red as I am “white” - I’m more pinkish with blue lines.) I saw it as descriptive not insulting.
I was likely about 16 before I heard a truly offensive term for Indian - prairie-nigger.
I say it is funny because I grew up in a thoroughly racist town. You wouldn’t believe (okay, likely you would) the venom that can be put into the word Indian. Later the venom moved to word Native.
Never once did I hear anyone say “redskin” or “wagon-burner” or any of the other terms but fuck could they make it clear that they hated Indians just by their voice.
Now these people were sweet as treacle and, at the time, I didn’t give it much thought beyond, “I guess Mr. O’ Malley doesn’t like Indians.”
But in retrospect I was raised to hate and distrust Indians.
It never took.
Partly because I didn’t know a single Indian that couldn’t kick my ass.
Mostly because Indians never gave me any shit. The ones who liked me became friends. The ones who didn’t left me alone.
White people, on the other hand, gave me no end of grief.
I learned two things from all of that:
A polite word can be made ugly just by tone and context
Never trust skin colour as a marker
I’d not have replied to you except it struck me that you said you got handed white slurs despite being American Indian and “that’s a distinction others may not make” when, growing up, not only was it a distinction people DID make, it was about the only one.
But it is amazing how much of a distinction can be made just with the hate you throw into a word.
I approach it from two points – courtesy/kindness/decency, and a broader societal view.
I’ll start with the second: Because of our history, certain slurs have a very high (and entirely reasonable) association with some of the worst atrocities humans have ever done. In order for such atrocities to take place, the majority/those-in-power need to have some level of contempt and dehumanizing opinions about the victims – usage of such slurs is part of that dehumanization. It’s much easier to enslave, torture, or kill a thing, animal, vermin, etc., then it is to do it to another person. Acceptance of common usage of these sorts of slurs is pretty much required (along with other things) for this sort of attitude to take hold in a populace. So I see it as an ongoing fight against those aspects of society, culture, and the like, that might be, even in a small way, turning us towards those attitudes. IMO we have to be vigilant, essentially forever, because this kind of thing might always be a part of us. If we let our guard up for a moment, or a day, or a year, or a century, it could easily come roaring back. This might sound like a monumental task or something, but to me it’s very easy, and requires very little effort – if I see/hear someone behaving in such a way, with words or actions, I call them out and criticize them (or at least that’s my intention). Intent is impossible to determine with certainty, so I’m more concerned about the actions – at worst, I’ll challenge someone who meant something else, and we’ll have a conversation that might be very constructive and enlightening.
The courtesy and decency part is much easier – I find such language incredibly rude and unkind, for the most part. I think it’s reasonable to call out behavior that’s very rude and unkind. It doesn’t mean the person is a monster. Another aspect is that it gives people an opportunity to improve themselves. IMO, few people, if anyone, truly can know if they have some racist attitudes, beliefs, or impulses within them. If someone insists that they’re not racist, this means nothing to me – this is something racist people say just as often as non-racist people. I certainly don’t know this for sure about myself. The best I’ll say is that I strive to not say racist things, or do racist things. If I make a mistake, I hope someone calls me out on it so I can improve myself. I’d find it discourteous to not call someone out and give them this opportunity to improve. Again, at worst, we might have a constructive and enlightening conversation, even if we disagree.
Dude, you are a white, heterosexual, gender-typical male. Don’t use slurs. Just don’t. Who cares if you have a black friend who says “It’s cool if you call me nigga, cause we are best buds since kindergarten” Just don’t do it. Don’t.
And no, “in-group” use isn’t always correct or allowed. In the military it sure wasn’t, no matter WHO was using slurs. Just don’t.
Stop overthinking why you can’t use slurs. Just don’t use them. Jesus, it’s simple.
It’s OK; as the OP said in his first post, the words themselves have no meaning.
I still have lots more to do that, in my view, is more important than posting a rebuttal to the OP’s premise, but I will say this; in sixty-two years I can’t think of a single time when I felt that the only way of properly expressing myself was to use a racial or ethnic slur (as a slur), and I likewise can’t think of the last time I’ve been called a name based on such a slur. I was going to extend my sympathies to the OP for all the name-calling he’s apparently had to endure over the years, but since it doesn’t seem to matter to him, I’ll won’t bother.
I think THAT depends on the purpose of communication. I’m typing this because I want my opinion to be heard. Therefore, its a failure on MY part if I don’t manage to communicate what I want - since I’m the one with the need to be heard. You have no obligation to read this, and since I want to be heard, I should make an effort to choose words that mean you don’t have to work very hard. Moreover, I should try and make sure that I choose words where you will read to the end. If, in good faith, I don’t do a perfect job, then you might give me the benefit of the doubt - but its on me to make the effort.
And that is the vast majority of communication. Especially on the internet.
If I spread my writing with racial slurs, I might lose you. Maybe not you - but maybe I’ll loose Kimstu - or someone else I want to read this. In which case, I’ve wasted my time because I’ve lost my audience.
(For instance, if you make your OP fifteen paragraphs long, a lot of people won’t read it through. You’ve spent all that time to not communicate).
Wow, BubbaDog! In order to find what you quoted I can only assume that you read through all the poorly formatted garbage that contained the quote. You are a better man than I, that’s for sure. Props.
I’m white and have been called “nigger” vastly more often than “honky” or “cracker.” Which in some way proves my point. Language doesn’t exist in a vacuum. These posts are further proof that language can be used inoffensively. I agree with Zeke thinking that words are scary like saying “Voldemort” is irrational.
I think the underlying motive is control though. If certain language or ideas can be labeled hateful, bigoted, racist, etc. than the ideas and those who present them can be discredited with no effort other than accusation. We see it all the time. Someone says policy x is bad and is called racist. Want to enforce immigration law? Racist!!1! Advocate free speech on college campuses? Hate! Racist! Shit Lord! That’s the underlying motive with controlling language and thought.
I’ve seen far, far more complaints about unjust accusations of racism than I have actual unjust accusations of racism. Of course, that may be due to differing opinions on which accusations are just or not.
I generally agree. Feel free to call racist arguments racist, which is different than calling a person racist – for people, I almost never use it, and only when it’s beyond clear that someone holds racist views.