The Validity of the Bible

Great Debates
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I think the column in which Cecil addresses Notrasdamus relates here - there are changes in religion, in word meaning and in lifestyles, that affect the meaning of and interpretation of the Bible.

Jenkinsfan said it best: if you believe in the prophesies of the Bible, than you will see them come true. I don’t believe in them, and they seem no more than coincidences to me.

Incidentally, Nostradamus made a “prediction” that on May 21, 1992, great tragedy would strike the world. Since this was my 11th birthday, I paid great attention to the news, and nothing happened. No earthquakes, no foreign coup d’etats, no hostile takeovers. Kind of ruined it all for me.

Glad it was not my actual day of birth (ie 5-21-81), or I would be the Antichrist. :slight_smile:

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Nacho: the prophesies are more than coinidences. Several, at least, appear to be shrewd political guessing. (If you discount the Miracle part)

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“Nothing of significance happened today.” — Diary of King George, III, July 4, 1776

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Greetings, this is my first post to The Straight Dope message board.

I am going to respond to just one of the prophesies being referred to as an example. Israel becoming a nation was NOT something any sane person would have predicted on the hope that “as long as there were Jews, there would have been attempts at a homeland again”.

Here’s why: the prophesy ALSO clearly stated that the Jews would be scattered across the face of the earth. How many races do you know of that have been scattered across the face of the earth, and have CONTINUED to stay that particular race? In other words, have you ever met a Saxon? How about a Jute? These races don’t exist anymore. They intermingled with other races over time. It should have happened to the Jews also, but it didn’t. There are still millions of pure-blooded Jews on the earth! That fact right there is miraculous!

So lets say some devious person decided to try to inject a false prophesy into the Bible. And let’s really suspend disbelief by assuming that God didn’t notice this happening and somehow let it slip in. Lets suppose this person thought to him or herself, “This prophesy will NEVER be fulfilled! The Jews cannot be dispersed and remain a pure blooded Jewish race, much less come back together thousands of years later!” Obviously, he would have been proven wrong.

That’s just ONE prophesy mind you. There were HUNDREDS of very specific, non-general prophesies that Jesus fulfilled JUST on the DAY he was crucified, for example (that he would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, that he would be pierced in the side but no bones broken, etc). If you are truly open-minded, fulfilled prophesy is a fascinating subject. No thinking person can ignore the powerful testimony of fulfilled biblical prophesy. You can try to explain it away all you want, but it’s there. It speaks for itself.

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FriendofGod, many of the prophecies you just referenced as being ones Jesus fulfilled were OT texts taken out of context - I’m sure the Jewish members of this board will be happy to go over this in painful detail. Heck, given that the passion week narratives specifically say “this was done to fulfill such and such a text” one could wonder about the trustworthiness of the narrator’s account. Especially when they can’t even agree on what happened to that money.

The Jews have remained a cohesive people due to their faith and the hostile climate around them. Their laws discouraged intermarriage, and they were not accepted by the Christians around them even when they made attempts at conversion (as in Spain).
It is hardly surprising they held together as a racial group, compared to ones that were scattered amongst fairly accepting nations.

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Hi Kyberneticist, thanks for responding :slight_smile:

I would like to give you an illustration that might prove my overall point.

Suppose I and 49 associates started issuing prophesies. Suppose each of us issued 10 prophesies apiece, totalling 500 prophesies. Suppose that over the course of the next 1000 years, 480 of the 500 prophesies came true. The remaining 20 prophesies were supposed to take place beyond this 1000 year period.

Now, you could probably look at EACH INDIVIDUAL ONE of those prophesies and find some kind of alternative way that it could have been fulfilled. Coincidence. Self-fulfilling. Out of context. Ulterior motives. Whatever.

But to say that ALL 500 PROPHESIES, en-masse, had some kind of alternate logical explanation is stretching it to say the least! If 480 OUT OF 500 come true, with 20 still to come, it’s pretty hard to deny that that’s a good track record, and that those remaining 20 will probably come true as well!

This is the situation we have with the Bible, although I reduced the numbers rather drastically. There are many more than just 480 accurate, fulfilled prophesies in the Bible! And there are many more than 20 left to come. But the point is this: you could probably come up with some excuse or quasi-logical explanation for EACH ONE of those prophesies. But at the heart of it is a denial of what is so obviously before you: an impeccable track record of accuracy that can’t be beat.

Here’s the real issue: IF Biblical prophesy IS as accurate as it is, then the Bible itself must be true. If the Bible is true, then you have no choice but to face deep, personal issues relating to your soul. I think most people try to avoid those issues. That is why, for SOME, no matter how much obvious evidence the Bible presents, they refuse to believe it. You can convince yourself that the Bible isn’t accurate with logical-sounding statements, but the truth is that if you look at it objectively, you literally have no choice but to belive it is what it claims to be - God’s Word. The evidence is overwhelming if it’s looked at objectively and without an “agenda”.

Well I hope I didn’t offend anyone. My goal is to get some of you to think about WHY you are so strenuously determined to make it appear that the Bible isn’t what it claims to be.

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We don’t have any problem with taking the Bible for what it claims to be, because the Bible itself doesn’t make any claims for itself. It what other Christians want to claim the Bible is that we take issue with.

I don’t think you’ve answered any of Kyber objections; you’ve just restated your arguments in different terms.

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Nothing personal, but I haven’t seen any evidence of one, much less 500 fulfilled Bible prophecies. Could you provide me with a reference to as many as you can find?
Also, some form of proof that they were in fact prophecies, and not written after the fact as a sort of boosterish “god has a plan for his people” type thing.
What I’m saying is that fulfilled prophecies being the incredibly unusual things that they are, just a little evidence would be appreciated.
I don’t believe the Bible is the inspired word of god due to its inaccuracies, its contradictions, its absurdaties, and the obvious cultural origins of its god.
I’ve been in discussion after discussion on biblical prophecy fulfillment, and watched arguments by fundies get ripped to shreds - occasionally even contributed myself.
Frankly, I’m getting quite bored with the whole thing, and it takes more and more to get a sufficient rise out of me to get me to do the research again.

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Kyber: many of the “short term” prophesies have come to pass. These might well be chalked up to shrewd political insight, writing the prophesy after the event, or the hand of G-d. The long term prophesies, such as the messianic prophesies, are vague, general, and can be made to fit a number of occurences. For example, Talmudics scholars can show that these did not apply to JC- but instead to a Messiah yet to come, while Christian scholars point to identical verses and say they could only apply to JC. Given the vague nature of several of these verses, both could well be right, you will have to take either on faith.

It would not take the direct word of G-d to have an intelligent person guess that the Temple in Jerusalem was not long for this world, given the Jewish zealots, and the insane Roman Emperors.

Freindofgd: Welcome to the SDMB!

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Thanks for the welcome Danielinthewolvesden.

I don’t know how the quote feature works so I’ll just copy’n’paste:

From Eutychus55
“We don’t have any problem with taking the Bible for what it claims to be, because the Bible itself doesn’t make any claims for itself. It what other Christians want to claim the Bible is that we take issue with.”

Hi Eutychus55. Well, actually, believe it or not, the Bible does in fact claim something for itself. Here is the main passage:

2 Timothy 3:16 “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

Notice the phrase “ALL Scripture”. Notice the phrase “EVERY good work”. This verse is saying that the entire Bible is God-breathed and a guidebook that can equip you to do every good work! Now, you can quibble about whether the claim is true or not, but the claim is there.

Here’s another passage specifically about prophesy:
2 Peter 1:19-21 “And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand that no prophesy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophesy never had it’s origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.”
Okay, here’s another quote from Eutychus55
“I don’t think you’ve answered any of Kyber objections; you’ve just restated your arguments in different terms.”

You are right, but I didn’t want to detract from the main point I stated in my last post. As for what Kyber says, the context of said passages are unmistakable. I’m going to try to find a few to post here in a sec, but they are clear as crystal. Also, as for the Jews staying together, I simply disagree. I think that regardless or any of the things Kyber said, over the course of 2000 years, I think it would have been unlikely that there would still be pure blooded Jews, but yet there are.

Here’s a quote from Kyberneticist
“What I’m saying is that fulfilled prophecies being the incredibly unusual things that they are, just a little evidence would be appreciated”

Understandable!! I am not a scholar on this point, but I am going to do my best to research and give you several examples. Unfortunately my best source for this kinda stuff has been loaned to a friend, which I will try to retrieve later this week so I can add some more points.

I take it that you would be more impressed with very specific Bible prophesies made in Bible times about CURRENT events that came true. As for the prophesies about Jesus…

Quote from Danielinthewolvesden
“The long term prophesies, such as the messianic prophesies, are vague, general, and can be made to fit a number of occurences. For example, Talmudics scholars can show that these did not apply to JC- but instead to a Messiah yet to come, while Christian scholars point to identical verses and say they could only apply to JC.”

Actually, they are INCREDIBLY nit-picky and specific, and it would be impossible for them to be vaguely interpreted. If we were talking about 1 or 2 or even 20 prophesies, it MIGHT be an understandable argument, but we are talking about HUNDREDS of DETAILED prophesies that were all fulfilled in Jesus alone. If you can find someone else who fits even HALF of them, I’d sure love to see it!

Okay here’s what I’m going to do. This post is getting long, so I’m going to end it, do some research, and post the results on here in just a little bit. I’m mainly going to try to post a few specific prophesies. Again, forgive me but some of my best materials are loaned out at the moment but I’ll do the best I can.

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FriendofGod:
Actually, they are INCREDIBLY nit-picky and specific, and it would be impossible for them to be vaguely interpreted. If we were talking about 1 or 2 or even 20 prophesies, it MIGHT be an understandable argument, but we are talking about HUNDREDS of DETAILED prophesies that were all fulfilled in Jesus alone. If you can find someone else who fits even HALF of them, I’d sure love to see it!

Opus1:
Well, I don’t mean to be rude, but you do realize that we have no independent confirmation of anything in the New Testament, right? So when Jesus was crucified, but his bones not broken, the NT writers could easily have just made that event up in order to fulfill an OT prophecy that they knew well. Likewise, when Judas betrays Jesus for 30 pieces of silver, when Jesus cries out “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?,” when Herod slaughters the innocents, when the soldiers cast lots for Jesus’ clothing, etc.–these are all events that could’ve been made up in order to turn Jesus into the Messiah.

Also, many of the OT prophecies that are quite specific and detailed are obviously not about Jesus. Take Micah 5:2, which Matthew claims to be a prophecy of Jesus. When we read it in context, the person being talked about in Micah will not only “be the shepherd of my people Israel” but will also “deliver us from the Assyrian when he invades our land and marches into our borders.” Now, since Jesus didn’t fight off any Assyrians, this can hardly be about him, can it? The only way to salvage this prophecy is to claim that one part applied to Jesus, but the other part applied to somebody else. Once you’ve done that, the prophecy you’re left with reads “Out of you [Bethlehem Ephrathah] will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.” Suddenly, this prophecy isn’t very specific now, is it? It can be about any ruler of Israel, as long as his origins are from ancient times, which is pretty much everybody. I nominate Benjamin Netanhayu as the Messiah!

But seriously, there are many more examples of false prophecies of Jesus in the NT. Another attempted prophecy fulfillment, again from Matthew, is the triumphal entry, from Zechariah 9:9. All three other gospel writers understand that Zech. 9:9 uses parallel structure, and that it is really referring to the king riding a single animal. Matthew can’t quite grasp this grammatical concept, so he has Jesus ride upon two animals into Jerusalem. In other words, Matthew is willing to either alter an historical event, or make one up entirely, in order to have Jesus artificially fulfill Zech. 9:9. This casts grave doubts on his credibility, if you ask me. But Matthew isn’t alone in abusing Zech. 9:9. The point of this passage is not that the savior will ride into Jerusalem on a donkey, which thousands have done anyway, but that he WILL BE ABLE to ride into Jerusalem on a donkey, without meeting military resistance, and without needing an army of his own. It is a prophecy of a military leader who will retake Jerusalem bloodlessly. It’s not about Jesus either. So all 4 gospel writers took it out of context.

I can argue about this endlessly, but I doubt I’ll convince you. Instead, I’ll just ask you to support your claims. I am highly skeptical that there are 500 prophecies of Jesus in the OT. The website http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/messiah.htm lists every conceivable prophecy under the sun, some very vague, and still only comes up with ~100. If you’d like to argue this further, I suggest you pick a handful of prophecies that you think are truly killer, and make the case that they refer to Jesus. I personally don’t think that there is a single actual prophecy of Jesus in the OT, but I’d be willing to be convinced otherwise if you can show me some that specifically and distinctly apply to him.

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No … try again. if you missed the point of my post, the Bible cannot make any claims for itself. The verse stated above is what the author of Timothy claimed for the Bible. Especially vexing when you consider that most of the New Testament hadn’t even been written yet. And I would suppose that this would include what we call the Apocrypha since the Council of Nicea hadn’t thrown them out yet.

As far as all of the Bible being inspired scripture, could you interpret Psalms 137: 8-9 as equipping us for “all good works?”

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Please accept my apologies, I am not having time like I expected. Let me gather my materials from friends I loaned them to over the next few days and I will post again, maybe even a new topic, to list some of the specific prophesies listed in the Bible about both Jesus and Israel in the last days. Anyone reading this who has this stuff handy, feel free to “beat me to it” and go ahead and post. Again, sorry I don’t have it handy and I really don’t have time to sit down and research all this from scratch again. I will respond in the next couple of days.

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Okay, SCRATCH my last post! Shortly after posting it I found some of what I was looking for. I will post a few scriptures here for you guys to think about and will post a few more in the days to come.

First … to respond to the last 2 posts.
Opus 1 said:
“Well, I don’t mean to be rude, but you do realize that we have no independent confirmation of anything in the New Testament, right?”
Do you honestly believe this? The Bible is history, pure and simple, as verifiable as any other historical document. Scratch that, MORE verifiable! Specifically, the life of Jesus is more verifiable. How many histories do you know of that were written by four different individuals, each one looking from their own unique perspective? It’s like having ABC, CBS, NBC, and FOX all giving their unique account of what happened!

If you want more specifics study the writings of Papias, bishop of Hierapolis, as quoted by the ancient historian Eusebius (Ecclesiastical History Book 3 Ch 39), and Irenaeus (Against Heresies, 3.1.1). Also, Josephus the historian considered Jesus a historical figure. There are more examples as well.

I find it amusing that most people place a higher standard on the accuracy of the Bible than any other ancient literature. I submit that if you submit all ancient writing to the SAME standard, the Bible is MORE verifiable than all the others.

Eutychus55 said:
“The verse stated above is what the author of Timothy claimed for the Bible.”
But, and I’m not trying to be cute here, Timothy is PART OF the Bible. And Paul’s writings were considered scripture by his peers WHILE he was still alive! Check out this rather astonishing verse (written by the Apostle Peter):
“. . . just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do THE OTHER SCRIPTURES, to their own destruction.”
Peter clearly called Paul’s words scripture.

Eutychus55, let me make my strongest case for why you should trust the Bible totally as God’s Word. Are you ready for this? Here’s my detailed, point-for-point analysis of why you should believe the Bible.

God is big enough that he’s not gonna let anyone screw up His book.

There it is! My big impressive case. Seriously, do you not think God is big enough to compile His message to mankind and make sure it stays intact for thousands of years? Truthfully now, if He’s God, how hard is that for Him to do? Not hard at all. I know there’s tons of archeological and historical proofs out there, and yes some of them are impressive, but to me this simple point of logic is the key to believing the Bible.

Eutychus55 ALSO said:
"As far as all of the Bible being inspired scripture, could you interpret Psalms 137: 8-9 as equipping us for “all good works?”
Eutychus, that’s the beauty of believing the whole Bible is true. If you read a passage like this and casually dismiss it by saying, “A HA! This proves the Bible isn’t the inspired Word of God!”, then you MISS OUT on some of the deepest, most powerful truths that are buried in the Bible. If you read it and say, “Okay, I don’t immediately understand this, but God I know your Word is true so help me understand”, and then you spend time researching it in the Bible, you discover some of the best truths the Bible has to offer.

I have never done an in-depth study of the passage you mentioned, but here’s the first thing I would study: what were the crimes of the Babylonians? Also, is the Psalmist merely making a statement of fact, not necessarily endorsing the action? What does this show about the emotional state of those who’d been attacked by Babylon? How does this jive with the NT teaching to love your enemies? This would be a great study, would reveal truths of God that I probably haven’t learned, and YES would be very profitable to learn!

OKAY, lets try four verses for starters, ALL just from Isaiah 53, the most popular Messianic passage in the OT.

“Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and WAS NUMBERED WITH THE TRANSGRESSORS.” (Is 53: 12)
Compare to: “Two other men, both criminals, wer also led out with him to be executed.” (Lk 23:32)

“He was assigned a grave with the wicked, AND WITH THE RICH IN HIS DEATH” (Is 53: 9)
“As evening approached, there came A RICH MAN from Arimathea, named Joseph …Joseph took the body … and placed it in his own new tomb…” (Mt 27:57-60)

“But He was PIERCED for our transgressions…” (Is 53:5)
“Instead, one of the soldiers PIERCED Jesus’ side with a spear…” (Jn 19:34)

“He was oppressed and afflicted, yet HE DID NOT OPEN HIS MOUTH; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so HE DID NOT OPEN HIS MOUTH” (Is 53:7)
See Mt 27:12-14, Mk 14:60-61, 15:4-5, Jn 19:8-9, Lk 23:8-9

These are just 4 examples from one popular OT passage. Opus, I checked out the link you put in and it’s actually quite good! The page he linked to contains many more, including some of the other ones I was going to point out. Specifically 30 pieces of silver, no bones broken, etc.

As you hinted, however, Opus, I guess none of this matters to you if you believe people just literally “made up” the NT! What do you base that belief on? Do you believe any other historical documents from that time period were just “made up”, or do you only believe this about the Bible? If so, WHY single the Bible out?

To be honest, I’m not sure I want to spend lotsa time compiling more verses about Jesus if you have already seen the ones listed on that website. If the sheer volume of and the specific nature of those prophesies don’t convince you, nothing will! What I think I’ll do is invest my energies into researching prophesies that have been clearly fulfilled in our time period, so no one can say “Well, it was just made up to fit bible prophesy.”

As I mentioned earlier, I will gather my materials from my friends and post more about Israel in the days to come.

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FriendofGod:
The Bible is history, pure and simple, as verifiable as any other historical document. Scratch that, MORE verifiable! Specifically, the life of Jesus is more verifiable. How many histories do you know of that were written by four different individuals, each one looking from their own unique perspective? It’s like having ABC, CBS, NBC, and FOX all giving their unique account of what happened!

Opus1:
Well, this is just nuts. The earliest gospel (Mark) was written ~70 C.E., 40 years after Jesus’ crucifixion, and over 70 years after his birth. Matthew and Luke were written 15-20 years after that, and John either around 90 C.E. or as late as 125 C.E.–it’s a bit tough to date. None of the gospels were written by eyewitnesses. Furthermore, Luke and Matthew are both heavily reliant on Mark, so to call them independent accounts is just absurd.

Secondly, each gospel was written by a Christian with the distinct purpose of glorifying Jesus and convincing others to become Christians. Thus they are far from disinterested reports.

Thirdly, the gospels contain many contradictions which Biblicists have had to go to great lengths to harmonize. Luke’s and Matthew’s infancy stories have not a single element in common. The two genealogies contradict. The stories about the denial of Peter contradict. The Last Supper and resurrection details contradict. The order of Jesus causing the fig tree to wilt and chasing the moneychangers out of the temple contradicts. The stories about the denial of Peter contradict. These discrepancies cast great doubt upon the accuracy of the gospel accounts.

Fourthly, the gospels contain many elements which simply defy belief. Herod’s slaughter of the innocents, the dead saints coming out of their graves and showing themselves to many people, the hours of darkness at the crucifixion, etc. were not noticed by anyone outside of the Bible. Even Josephus, who greatly enjoyed documenting all of Herod’s crimes, somehow managed to miss the fact that he killed thousands of infant children.

Finally, the gospels contain many supernatural accounts, things which defy physical law and can only be fairly called miraculous. These claims require extraordinary evidence. I do apply this same standard of evidence to other ancient texts. When the Hindu Vedas say that Krisha could fly, when the Buddist texts say that Buddha spoke the first day he was born, when the Hadiths tell of Mohammed splitting the moon in half, when Caesar is alleged to be born of a virgin, when any supernatural or extraordinary claim is made in an ancient document, I am very skeptical. So no, I don’t single out the Bible.

Since you did post some prophecies that you believe Jesus has fulfilled, let’s look at them.

All of your prophecies come from Isaiah 53, the famous suffering servant. Now, let’s look at this entire chapter in context:

  1. Nowhere is it mentioned that Isaiah 53 is about a Messiah
  2. The suffering servant’s appearance is said to be “disfigured beyond that of any man and his form marred beyond human likeness.” (Is. 52:14)
  3. He is said to have “no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.” (53:2)
  4. He is “despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.” (53:3)
  5. He was “despised, and we esteemed him not.” (53:3)
  6. He did not open his mouth when afflicted (53:7), but Jesus said lots to Pilate according to John, and said several things while on the cross.
  7. He was “stricken by God,” where the Hebrew word used has no other meaning in Hebrew than to be afflicted with leprosy.
  8. He was assigned a grave with the wicked and the rich, but Jesus was alone in the tomb. The text clearly states that he was buried with the rich, not by the rich.
  9. “Though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he wil see his offspring and prolong his days.” Jesus had no offspring.
  10. “I will give him a portion among the great.” Jesus lived several hundred years after Isaiah, so Isaiah could give Jesus nothing.

That’s ten reasons why Jesus could not be the suffering servant mentioned in Isaiah 53. The typical Jewish interpretation is that Isaiah is talking about Israel itself, sometimes using its king in place of the country in a bit of confusing synecdote. I’m not so much concerned in the correct interpretation of this verse as I am in pointing out that the Christian one is incorrect.

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FriendofGod said:

Have you ever met a white Jew? How about a black Jew? A Hispanic Jew? A Korean Jew? Guess what? Judaism is not a race, it’s a religion.

Wrong.

What is a “pure-blooded Jew”? Jewishness is determined by the religion of the mother (or by conversion – I never heard of being able to convert to become another race).

What’s miraculous is your total lack of understanding…

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Actually, Opus, the Gospels, or some of them, were written by eyewittnesses. There is no evidence that the Christian tradition (that the Apostle Matthew wrote or dictated the 1st Gospel) is incorrect. It is generally accepted that the “beloved Apostle/John” dictated John, probably when he was about 90. There are certainly inconsistancies anoung the 4 Gospels, but if you took 4 eyewitness accounts, 40 years or so after the activities, there would be a lot of inconsistencies. It is very likely that there was a record of the actual words of JC, from his sermons, that was recorded either during his lifetime, or just after his death. This explains why some of the wording in the Gospels is identical, altho it appears Luke rewrote or copied from earlier Gospels. And even Luke had Peter, and James the Brother of Jesus to verify his writings with.

But as for those verses in Isaiah: where does it say they are concerning the Messiah? Internal statements seem to indicate the Prophet is refering to HIMSELF, not the Messiah. Also, try Isa53:7,"… so he openeth not his mouth"
but JC did speak out. Isa53:5 KJV says “wounded” not pierced. But what does it say? There was a man who was hurt & imprisoned for "our"sins- the same can be said for thousands of Martyrs. These are so general as to have no way to say they are “true” prophesies.

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17

Al: Well I hate to brake it to ya but that sort of thing has been going on for a long long time. That is one difference form the Eastern culture and they Western culture.. Western culture believes in the "Last Days" and the Apocalypse. There are many examples of "living in the last days" that have happened in history. The Essean Monks had an apocalyptic book called the Book of War which was found near the Dead Sea in a cave. They seen their time as the last days. Another example would be the voyage of Christopher Columbus to the new world. Christopher Columbus thought he was an agent of God who would fulfill the prophecies you mentioned above. In 1492 the Jews were driven out of Spain, the last Moore strong hold was defeated and Christopher Columbus was (he thought) on his way to Asia to spread Christianity to all people who had not heard the gospal message. He was going to Use the money raised from the trip to Asia to finance an army to take back the holy lands. Well instead he ended up in the Americas and force converted a lot of the Natives then took alot of them into slavery. Well it looked good but no Second coming. Another example was during the reformation when Martian Luther thought he was living in the last days and seen the Pope as the Antichrist. Actually false prophecies benefit people because with out it we wouldn't have gotten democracy, and had we never thought that England was the antichrist during the revolutionary war we wouldn't have America's freedoms. So either way it's all good!
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If they say the end is coming, then it is not.

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Then that is verification of the inaccuracy of the prophecy, as the State of Israel was founded in 1948. :slight_smile: