“The card would have to be set up by legislation in Parliament, but it would not be possible for ministers to turn a voluntary scheme into a compulsory card without a change in primary legislation going through both Houses of Parliament.”
Which means that whenever the government wants, it can decide to make card carrying mandatory.
It’s exactly that confidence that is dangerous. I’m willing to bet that fake IDs are available in your country to the criminal element for a sufficiently high price. No system is perfectly secure, and the the more secure it is, the more confidence people have in it, therefore when fakes are available, the consequences will be that much greater.
Think about it, if someone asked you for credit or a library card or whatever would you trust them if they had the least secure identification (such as a piece of paper with their name on it in crayon)? No, you’d want corroborating evidence. But if someone had a fake ID, you wouldn’t question it.
So why spend all this money to tackle the minority cause of fraud. It makes no sense.
Whenever the current government wants to do anything it can, in theory at least. Welcome to the wonderful world of FPTP.
I’m not so sure it would be that easy. I imagine there are more than a few backbenchers feeling uneasy about the proposals, and dissent is more common on backbenches when MPs feel ignored by the PM and when they can register a protest vote without jeopardising the entire legislative programme.
I have been required to show multiple ID’s to get, renew, or change a driver’s license (in the US they’re issued by the state, not the Federal government, so if you move you have to turn in the old one and get a new one for your state of residence), obtain a marriage certificate, obtain a passport, rent an apartment, open a bank account, obtain my pilot’s license, obtain a social security number (I think they’re now issued at birth, but I didn’t get mine until 18), and to register to vote. That’s just off the top of my head, can probably think of more if I really try.
Multiple forms of ID (utilities bill, bank statement, passport) are harder to forge, so making someone turn up with three independent proofs of identity is a better guarantee than turning up with a single card.
There is already a universal ID in the US and Canada. It is called a driver’s licence and even if issued by the states, they all seem to follow a standard format. When I moved from Illinois to Quebec, I was more than a little surprised to find that the licence number didn’t change. It was pretty clearly made up from a hash of my name and my birth date. Try to get on an airplane without it.
In what way would it have prevented 9/11?
In what way would Ashcroft not have made a perfect apparatchik in the KGB? It seems to me he had the perfect mentality for it. I am not so sure the Soviets actually lost the cold war.
What exactly is a “universal ID”? Here in the states, a license or passport is pretty much universally excepted as a valid form of id anywhere in the country. The only time we ever have to present it is while getting pulled over, filling out paperwork to prove who we are, renting a car, or drinking in a bar.
I’m just against anything that will make me stand in a huge line at some government office for 2 hours.
Of course no system is 100 per cent proof, and I’m sure they’re available on the black market*, but German ID cards are backed up by the residents’ registering system. Broomstick mentioned the voting registration thing. there is nothing like this here - I’m mailed the papers necessary to get a ballot automatically, simply because I’m obliged to be registered in the town I live in, so they’ll know who’s living there anyway. The ID card is issued by those registration offices, and since it expires after some time you’ll have to get a new one periodically, so the ID card alone isn’t going to help you that much. If I wanted to get a pilot’s license, a fake ID card would be useless - they’d simply check the residents’ register. This does sound like Big Brother Is Watching You, but the system is pretty much secured against abuse.
And go alien: I doubt it’s too hard to forge a utility bill and a bank statement.
*): Anecdote:
A relative of mine, who is a judge, had a case some time ago where a girl, maybe 16 years or so, was accused of ID forgery. She wanted to appear as if she were 18 because that would make it easier for her to enter certain discotheques or whatever, and she had some friend who’d print a digit on his computer on a foil and paste it onto the year of birth to make it appear she was two years older than she was. I’ve seen that card, it really didn’t look that bad, but upon ID check, it was revealed and she got some trouble.
To my mind a universal ID is a form of ID that everyone has. I don’t drive and don’t have a driver’s license. I know people who don’t have passports. I’m not debating what’s widely accepted or not, just that a driver’s license can act as a universally available ID.
Don’t take this personally but - a resident’s register? You mean that if you change address, you have to report in? That is a police state. Can you go to jail for forgetting to register a change of address? What about itinerant workers?
Utility bills and bank statements can be forged, true. But I reckon a full set of a credit card in my name, a new credit card style driving license and a passport is a lot to forge and probably harder than a single ID card.
[highjack] Is it true that in Germany you have to have net curtains on downstairs windows, cannot take a shower after 10:30 pm (presumably in an apartment block) and cannot hang out washing to dry on a Sunday? I’ve heard these particular accusations so often that I wonder if they’re true.
[/highjack]
go alien, don’t we have the same thing (i.e. the electoral role)? When we moved 5 years ago, we didn’t have to register straight away (I think they only cottoned on when the next local or gov’t elections came around), but the accompanying blurb left us in no doubt that it was a criminal offence not to be on the role (if you’re of voting age, of course). It’s a different beast than Schnitte’s, of course, but nonetheless there’s a list, and you’ve got to be on it. Not too sure how heavily it’s policed, mind you.
Here in the State’s if you don’t have a driver’s license you’re pretty much screwed. If you insist on not getting one )or if you’re prevented from having one due to past criminal activity) every state I’ve lived in has had a variation called something like ‘State Identification’ or some such.
And we already have universal numbering of citizens in the states. Hello Social Security! It’s getting more efficient, too. I got mine at age 10. My little girl got hers at age 1 day. You can’t really work here without one (or a Green Card, if you’re not a US citizen).
So combine the SS Card with the Driver’s License (and, I should note, in Virginia the default is to have your SS# be your Driver’s License number. You can opt to have a different one, though.) and bang, we have a universal system of human registration that fits one one of two handy cards.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Go alien *
**Schnitte,Don’t take this personally but - a resident’s register? You mean that if you change address, you have to report in? **
Yes. People hate it, because it means unregistering at your previous hometown and registering at your new one, which can take a few hours of waiting.
No, it’s just a minor offense, but you can get fined for it.
I know, it sound like police state, but we can live with it.
You’re supposed to be registered in the town where you have your main residence, i.e. where you have your “focus of life”, as the law calls it (“Lebensmittelpunkt” in German). Where your home is, your family lives, etc.
A relative was having some trouble with the authorities because of that. We’re living in a small town in Bavaria, and she went to university in Munich, which is why she is regitered in Munich now. A couple of years ago, she took two semesters in another university town, but she remained registered in Munich. The authorities of the other town somehow found out and repeatedly mailed her to register there, which she didn’t do. No legal consequences though, although they threatened to have her prosecuted.
Utility bills and bank statements can be forged, true. But I reckon a full set of a credit card in my name, a new credit card style driving license and a passport is a lot to forge and probably harder than a single ID card.
The fun thing is, I had to get an ID before I could get a driveing license. When I took my driving test, I was asked for ID.
I don’t know about the curtains, but the shower can be true if you’re living in an apartment block (it’s not a law, it’s “common law” - there have been suits about it, and the coutrs usually ruled there are certain times after which you’re supposed not to do things that could cause too much noise to your neighbours.
There is legal regulation about holidays. Holidays and sundays are protected even by the constitution, which means it’s illegal to do any kind of work that’s noticeable by the public (another minor offense - if you do it, you’ll either get no trouble at all or pay a small fine). I’ve used this several times as an excuse when my mother wanted me to do garden work on sunday.
Here in Texas where the driver’s license is our de facto universal ID, you are expected to reflect any change in address within a reasonable time on your driver’s license. Failure to do so gets you a stern look by the cop who pulled you over for speeding - or at least that’s been my experience. So according to your definition Texas is a police state. So, police state? Big deal!
Xerxes** Is this in the U.K.? I have no cite right now - but I don’t think that is the case at all. Nor could it be, really. Example: my friend (U.S. citizen) who has lived in the U.K. for over 10 years, but is not on the Electoral Roll, for the pretty good reason that she is of U.S. nationality and not entitled to vote here. ) (This made it a bit tricky dealing with mortgages etc so her loud complaints at the time are why I remember.
So you can be perfectly legiimately resident without being on the Electoral Roll.
So, all I am saying is that the Voters’ Roll does not function as a universal resident list. Nor is a drving llicence or a passport a universal I.D. - I, for one, possess neither.
And I don’t want anything to do with Blunkett’s bueeaucracy card either. I wonder how it will all end up.
Er, no. You are told off. You have a reasonable period of time to note the change, which presumably is open to interpretation and good excuses. You do not have to immediately go to some local office, queue up and sign on when you change address.
In a police state, the cop would ignore the speeding charge and send you to trial for not registering a change of address. Knowing the default location of people is very important in a police state.
Go Alien, that doesn’t exactly match up with your characterisation of Germany as a police state – as Schnitte said, his/her relative was written to but never prosecuted or faced any kind of ‘immediate’ action.