The Walking Dead; 2.07 "Pretty Much Dead Already" (open spoilers)

Cafe Society
261

Are auto-repair skills that useful? Looks to me if you need a new car, just take one of the many many abandoned vehicles. Hot-wiring skill is all you’d need. Heck, find an abandoned car dealership and somewhere onsite is a lockbox with all the keys you’ll need.

In fact, I reiterate my earlier proposal - use cars to run zombies over in large numbers, maybe look for a truck with a snowplow attachment or something, and ba-ba-ba-blammo, just drive through and over bodies like a confused senior citizen on a boardwalk.

262

Okay, I’m doing this on my phone and can’t scroll back up to make sure I’m not leaving anything out. If I do, I apologize.

Let’s see, I don’t think Dale figuring out Shane necessarily had anything to do with him witnessing putting Rick in his rifle sights. I think it’s got to do with how he told his tale when he returned. If I remember correctly, Dale looked funny at him when he was telling his story.

About Carl… I wasn’t saying he was untrustworthy, I was asking (which I had earlier in the thread) why he was worth saving if he doesn’t actually contribute anything to the group (I mean, this is basically the same reason for shooting Otis – he was older, overweight and not much of a positive addition overall), but that got conflated with my point about Shane not being trustworthy. Sorry for the confusion.

And as far as my take on Shane’s reasoning, I used my example to illustrate how I thought that behavior was possible. The guy I knew who did it was so ingrained that it didn’t matter if it was for show to others, it was just second nature. He did it without thinking. I believe Shane got to that point early on and hence, it’s what he goes to first, evidenced by him covering up what he did.

I think that’s everything. If I missed something, wave it under my nose and I’ll try again. :slight_smile:

263

They have the hot wiring skills covered already without Dale.

I don’t see the point of running them over. They don’t tend to gather together too often and the biggest groups we’ve seen have been Atlanta where there were way too many to try this with and the traffic jam where this wouldn’t have worked because, well, there was a traffic jam. In the right scenario though, you’re right, very effective.

264

As far as Carl’s worth… depending on the view of the future they are all holding on to, isn’t the default position at times of apocalypse to put humanity’s hopes in the children? Better girl children, certainly, but still…

And can anyone tell me how in one episode Carl was barely alive and the next time I see him he’s bopping around the farm all rosy-cheeked?

Last question: what’s so damn special about the farm? Does it have anti-zombie rays emanating from towers or something?

I also really hope we find out about the long term re: zombies. Seeing as how they continue to decay, it seems to me that the day will come when they are all gone. They have to “die” eventually because their brains will turn to soup, and logically that really shouldn’t take too long at all.

265

The point in saving Carl is because that’s what moral people do, protecting the weak. It’s not what you do if you are out only for yourself. That’s a point in Shane’s favor.

I also don’t see Shane volunteering to do anything else that could compromise his safety. Just that one time. He didn’t even join the away team on either Atlanta run. Now, we’re to assume that volunteering to look good is second nature to him? I’m not seeing it.

266

Carl has the constitution of a god. That’s really why he’s worth saving.

267

(I can just imagine this being said in a southern accent by a guy dressed like Col Sanders)

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the Defense has argued that the defendant Shane Doe, a drifter with no known address, offered to sacrifice himself but Otis, a family man and South Georgia Emergency Medical Technician, wouldn’t allow it. Therefore, to save the boy, the defendant had no other choice but to shoot the victim and get the medical supplies back to the critically injured child.

Well, they got a sayin’ around these parts -maybe you’ve heard it- …actions speak louder than words. The defense would have you believe that Otis wouldn’t allow the defendant to sacrifice himself, but I ask you this… what was stopping him? He could have dropped his bag and walked toward the zombies and within a few short seconds the deed would have been done. If he was worried that Otis might try to stop him, he could have shoved him forward and it would have all been over by the time Otis got back up. The truth is, contrary to what the defense would have you believe, there was nothing in the world that could have stopped him from sacrificing himself, except perhaps the desire.

The defense has also argued that the defendant was motivated by an overpowering drive to get the medical supplies to the hurt child. Well, in the scenario I just laid out for you, he could have dropped the bag and died assured it would have been delivered - by one of only two people in the world with the training and knowledge to help the critically injured child, I might add.

However, the defendant did not choose that scenario. Instead, he chose to shoot the victim in the leg, immobilizing him and sentencing him to a certain and violent death. And what of the medical supplies that the defense would have you believe he was so worried about?

Well, now the defendant has problems. First, the bag is strapped to the back of the man he just shot. Second, the victim is quite upset at having been shot, as any of us would be. Third, as you will recall, both men were carrying pistols in their hand at the time of the shooting. And fourth, there is a herd of living dead just yards away, intent on devouring whomever they can get their hands on. There are a million things that could have gone wrong and it’s a wonder he was able to get the bag away from the victim at all.

So, ladies and gentlemen, the defense would have you believe that the defendant wanted to sacrifice himself, but couldn’t. I believe I’ve shown that wasn’t the case. The defense would also have you believe the defendant felt that the medical supplies were more important than either of their lives. Now, ask yourself this… if what the defense said is true, then why did the defendant choose the one scenario that put those medical supplies at the most risk of being lost?

The prosecution rests.

268

I guess we’ll have to disagree then. Because if Lori being pregnant is also a bad and insane idea, I don’t really see why the rush to save Carl, with his limitations, over two able-bodied, useful males.

And if we’re talking morality is the reason, than I suppose that’s what we’re all arguing about in the fact that Shane didn’t act morally regarding Otis.

Again, I’ll chalk this up to agreeing to disagree. But I will look forward to watching more of Shane’s true colors coming out and how, sadly, he’ll do more harm to the group than he’s ever done good.

269

I don’t recall anyone but Lori taking that position about her baby and she wasn’t all that enthused about saving Carl either. Can’t blame that attitude on Shane.

270

Unless his motive is to score points with Lori. Which seems entirely possible, seeing how Shane seems to be keeping score on his “heroics”. (Recall him throwing up to Lori the number of times he has saved her and Carl.)

271

A distinction that I’m sure Carl would not be concerned with and still more palatable than just letting Carl die which what the post I replied to was suggesting was the way to go.

I believe that impressing Lori is part of the reason he was so adamant about rescuing Carl but he does seem to show affection for him too so I think it’s not quite so simple.

He didn’t write off Sophia until too much time had passed and people were getting hurt and even then he couldn’t bring himself to shooting her zombie.

272

I suppose Otis could technically be described as able-bodied, but only just barely.

Of course. We evolved from savages to begin with; no reason we can’t do it again.

A baby will get the group killed by crying at the most inopportune time. Remember the first episode this season, when everyone was hiding under cars as the stagger of zombies shambled by? You can’t tell a baby to be quiet for that. Carl if fully capable of taking direction.

This is a temporary situation, though, until they establish a home. Some place like the farmhouse would be fine to raise a baby, but in a nomadic existence it’d be a major liability.

273

Apparently I’m not communicating well, but I wasn’t prescribing that position to Shane, I was asking why it was different with Carl. But you know, I give up. And if Fubaya didn’t more adequately address the situation and still the point isn’t getting across, then I certainly couldn’t do a better job of it myself anyway. I think I’ll just let this discussion ride on without me and be happy that I couldn’t do to Otis what Shane did.

274

Fubaya’s cutesy Colonel Sanders impression was off putting and all it was was a regurgitation of an opinion already expressed. You presented your point better than Fubaya did to me. We just disagree.

I don’t mind you being happy that you couldn’t do what Shane did to Otis. I’m sure Rick couldn’t do what Shane did but he’s still a valuable member of the group. Survival needs more than one type of person.

I would be willing to bet Darryl would have been able to do what Shane did but I’m betting that he’d have figured out a better plan than they went in with and would have included Glenn, you know, the groups “go and get stuff” specialist.

Shane is good as a muscle guy but as a planner, not so much. That’s why he shouldn’t be the leader though he really wants to be.

If you could answer one last thing though because I’m genuinely confused. If you’re not attributing that position about Carl to Shane then who exactly holds that position and what relevance does it hold for Shane choosing the action he did?

275

One more thing. I must have missed this but when did Otis get the supplies from Shane? Shane was the one who got them at the school so when did he give them to Otis and why? I’ve wondered about this.

276

Their stupidity lies in not clearing the pharmacy of everything that could possibly be of use and carting it back to the farm.

277

Well, the Col. Sanders clan seem to be in denial about the extent and seriousness of the plague. I think they are still trying to be neighborly and leaving the medicine for the common good. It’s good that they ran into Rick’s group first, otherwise they were going to get slaughtered by the first roving band of survivors that happened upon the farm.

278

You’ve excluded the middle between martyr and villain. Otis was as good as dead by that point. A party “rests” after their case in chief not their closing argument.

279

I didn’t consider that the farm crew wrote the sign. It seems far more logical that the pharmacy owners wrote it and then went on their way just like our band of survivors. I’d imagine that lots of people would try to get to somewhere where it would be safer or to be with family. Heck, they may even have gone to the farm. You may be right. The show never really says.

Herschel is a vet though and has a lot of supplies of his own. He only needed more because of the severity of Carl’s wound. He may well have not needed to go to the pharmacy at all before then. It would be safer not to and you don’t see them leaving the farm all that often. I would think it out of character for them to take risks for unneeded supplies.

That is risks for either themselves or innocent zombies in their opinion. They strike me as more, stay put on the farm people.

280

Inexperienced Cannibal:
“Your honor, I did not get on that plane expecting to eat anyone!”

What a great way for a bodily-fluid-borne virus to spread itself! Especially if the internal organs drag themselves all around for a while, splashing and splattering over a greater area, maybe infecting a dog or something that eats the not-quite-digested food…

Do we know at this point that the virus only affects humans? I don’t recall any dogs, and the only horse we saw bitten was eaten; wouldn’t a feral pack of zombie dogs be pretty f’ing frightening?

Well, aside from the obvious problem of Herschel not wanting them to stay, the farm would be a great place to take the medicine. Of course, a better place to cart it all would have been into Dale’s RV. If Herschel decides to let them stay and help out, however, the farmhouse is clearly the place to bring supplies.

That and getting every possible car that runs off the freeway and onto the farm, and those that don’t off the freeway. Ya got yer cars, ya got yer spare parts, ya got at least some gasoline, ya got whatever the people who were driving had packed with them (most likely valuables, camping/hunting equipment, luggage including toiletries and clothing, and probably food). Then ya got yer broken-down or salvaged cars, which are an excellent source of metal for building other things… horse-drawn plow, anyone? Door panel shields? Glass windows for the new buildings? Tire irons, jacks, jumper cables, spare tires… the list goes on, and that’s just the highway.

Once you’ve got transportation established, you get a few pickuptrucks and make a series of small raids. Drive in, get everything that’s not nailed down from the pharmacy, and get it back to the farm safely. Do the grocery store next, followed by raids on any other home-good stores (Don’t tell me there isn’t a Wal-Mart around, this is America right?), and then systematically hit all the gas stations, collecting gasoline, oil, diesel, and anything else in the store (cigarettes, anyone?)

The next step is taking a huge caravan into town and raiding the everliving crap outta the Home Depot. Farm Tools = Anti-zombie weaponry. Pitchforks, shovels, sledgehammers, a freakin’ scythe would be perfect. Avoid the chainsaws tho… waste of gasoline. Well, ok, ONE chainsaw. Because chainsaws are cool.

Hardware and building supplies, however, is what you’re REALLY there for. Plywood, 2x4s, lots and lots of nails, barbed wire, anything you can get your hands on. You’re gonna need it because:

Farm < Barricade < Fort < Moat < Castle. People are GOOD at building things other people can’t get into or out of, especialy without weaponry. It would take some serious manpower but if ya just fortify the everlivin’ crap out of that farmhouse, and put someone up top as a lookout, there’s no way anything but a huge pack of zombies could get anywhere near the place. Then take the way they kept catching zombies in that pond… set out zombie traps overnight, empty them in the morning.

Now you’re set. Begin forays further away, clear neighboring farms, claim more land, bring in more survivors, build more stuff… the whole time, any zombie that strays anywhere near your group is toast.

No, I’ve never really considered the idea of some kind of post-apocalyptic situation before, why do you ask?

Also, ya know what I really wanted to see in this episode?

[spoiler] As the last of the zombies hits the ground outside the barn, a single shoe worn by a little girl emerges into the light.

[Sophia] Rarrr!
[Everyone] Oh god, she’s been right here the whole time!
[Sophia] Brains!
[Everyone] Well, she’s dead now, I guess we have to finish the job.
Everyone cocks their guns and takes aim
[Sophia] Rarr!!
Sophia looks at the massed weaponry aimed her way, and the pile of dozens of ex-zombies she was just hiding with and, with just a glint of intelligence left in her eye… walks back into the barn and out of sight.
[/spoiler]