I think that part of Human Action’s issue is the speed with which Andrea hopped into bed. I’m not agreeing with that, but it’s not a totally unreasonable stance.
I don’t know that you’d pick out me and my brothers, but I’ve got three sons (cue the saxophone!) that are pretty consistently mistaken for each other and or asked if they are twins (they aren’t).
Of course, Merle and Daryl don’t look that much alike - close enough to be acceptable as brothers from a casting viewpoint, but not pickable as such from a lineup.
There’s nothing sloppy about the Daryl thing. He wanted to see Merle anyway. He was captured. He said, “Merle is my brother” to anybody who’d listen, and somebody told the Governor. End of story.
As far as the battle over the word “promiscuous” goes, could we maybe just drop it, and not turn it into an extended discussion of what kind of crime rape is, etc? Human Action has a low opinion of the sexual behaviors of several characters in the show, including Andrea, because she slept with a guy a very short time after meeting him (and, incidentally, against the very firm advice of the person who’s been looking out for her for months). I couldn’t care less, but I don’t think HA is wrong for thinking it’s a negative character trait.
He’s also right in pointing out that she is, in theory, a protagonist in this story, and is miserably written (and acted, IMO) for that role.
Speaking of miserably written, there is also Michonne and <insert whichever black guy has been allowed to live this episode, perpetually>.
I couldn’t quite figure out why the gun battle happened to begin with. First, is there no other way out of town? Did that chick from Inception build this place in such a way that none of the back doors lead anywhere? I’m sure it’s barricaded all around but go take your time climbing a barricade in back instead of attacking the only heavily guarded point in town. They got in secretly, did their entrance close up or something? Was it down a one way street?
Second, instead of coming out shooting, I don’t see why they didn’t walk down the sidewalk, staying in the shadows near the buildings until ready, or forced, to open fire. The front of those buildings looked awfully dark and had a lot of brick and concrete for cover, and the guards were looking outward. If they took a casual stroll down the sidewalk and someone did spot them, they’d probably assume they were friendlies until it was too late, but with a little luck they might have gotten out without firing a shot.
This was my thought as well. In a previous episode didn’t the Governor suggest Merle infiltrate the prison through his brother?
Why did all the shooting and commotion not attract any zombies to Woodbury? It wasn’t in the budget? Or the writers just didn’t feel like dealing with making it more complex? Any other reasonable possibilities? It certainly wasn’t consistent with noise attracting zombies, which is something we’ve seen as a story point.
That’s the least part that bothered me about Michonne’s reaction to Penny…
Oh noes, how dare you keep your zombie daughter chained up alive with a bag over her head?!? Everybody knows that you’re supposed to keep them chained up with their bottom jaws removed!! What’s this barbaric bag shit?!? Surely, I must kill her to put an end to her months-long indignity and misery.
Michonne is pretty much the last character who should have been the one to discover and kill Penny. If anything, it should have been Andrea - that is, if she’s going to end up turning away from the Governor.
First off, I apologize to Acsenray for bungling the quote coding on his/her replies in consecutive posts.
Secondly, I was replying to this remark:
I was trying to point out that I didn’t hold up Andrea as some sort of sexual degenerate, the worst such the show has depicted. By way of illustration, I pointed out that two of the male characters had attempted or approached forcible rape. This was meant to place Andrea’s actions in context, as minor grousing directed at a character I already disliked. I did not mean to link rape and promiscuity in any way beyond being on a spectrum that could be labeled “negative sexual behavior.”
This is, in fact, what I was referring to. “Promiscuous” is probably not the ideal word for that, but it was the last item in a list of negative character traits, a bit of an afterthought, so I didn’t take the extra effort to search for a better term. That’s my mistake.
I’m fine with dropping it, and you’ve summed up my position better than I did myself in my initial post on this topic. I will address anyone who wants to further discuss it, though. It’s not something I care deeply about either, it’s perhaps the 5th worst aspect of Andrea’s character’s morality.
I think we can all agree on this point.
Glad I’m not the only one, but I do try to read subtext into most any work of fiction.
Having thought about it more, this is almost certainly what occurred. The whole reason for Daryl to head off on his own was to locate Merle, after all. Perhaps he even allowed himself to be captured (the first thing I thought when they revealed the captured Daryl was that I didn’t think he’d let himself be taken alive) to facilitate the meeting, unaware that Merle’s lie about Michonne had just soured Merle’s relationship with The Governor. Assuming, of course, that it isn’t a mole-planting operation on the part of The Governor, which I consider possible but unlikely, the white-hot rage coming from The Governor’s one good eye and directed at Merle in the infirmary scene felt very real and immediate.
I’m a day late watching the show. My first impressions (haven’t read the thread yet):
What was Zombiedaughter looking at when the Gov let her out of her cage? It looked like a huge bowl of strawberry sherbet?
Seriously Michonne, would it hurt you to say “I’ll go take a look around?” before ducking off into the night?
“Maggie’s with Glenn, and you’re a lesbian…” Bwwaahahahaha!
Holy shit, Maggie stabbed a guy in the throat with a human bone!
…aaaand Oscar’s down. I guess with the introduction of two new black people it was inevitable. Lord knows they couldn’t possibly have THREE of them on the show at once :rolleyes:
Andrew Lincoln needs to either do some wrist exercises or get a lighter prop gun. His limp-wristed, can’t-lift-the-barrel grip on his revolver is getting distracting.
Aww, Carl is trying to act all grown-up and jaded. Or maybe the trauma of watching his mother deliver a baby and then die has taken it’s toll. Either way, I still can’t stand him.
Terrorists? Come on, that’s so 2000’s.
You can see Andrea starting to put things together when the Gov unveils Daryl. It’s starting to dawn on her that A) her boyfriend isn’t the boy scout she thinks he is, and B) the invaders weren’t what she thought they were either.
Who predicted the Daryl/Merle showdown last week?
Raw meat/flesh of some kind.
Or “Andrea, the reason I’m about to kill The Governor is…” Michonne is seriously committed to the idea that Andrea should trust her on principle and without evidence.
Of course not. Whenever they show two of them at the same time, we get scared.
Agreed, they may be attempting some lame political allegory, which these writers are in no way equipped to handle.
That’s a good point, but on re-watch, she raises her sword to kill Penny, as she kills every zombie she can, then The Governor yells “Stop!”. Michonne ends up killing her anyway, but presumably to spite The Governor, rather than out of a desire to end indignity and misery. “She doesn’t have needs” sounds pretty dismissive of zombies as victims.
Speaking of that scene, after 8 episodes, Michonne got a non-scowling line! Her delivery of “It’s ok, I’m not going to hurt you” was positively warm and human.
Ohhh! Haha ok that makes so much sense. I’m embarrassed to admit, I read that scene completely opposite of how it was intended. I literally thought it was some kind of ice cream/sherbet, and that her fixation on it rather than on the living prey right in front of her (the Gov) was evidence that zombies do retain some trace of their former selves. After all, a zombie would have no use for a big bowl of ice cream, but a little girl would.
This scene almost had me yelling at the screen. In one of the few times we see Michonne break from her usual glowering, simmering expression, she displays a look that shows her shock, horror, and disgust at the thought of keeping a captive zombie. “You mutilated and kept two zombies as pets for months! What is so shocking about this to you?!?”
Like many, I disagree with the notion that Andrea is particularly “promiscuous,” however one defines that word. When she shacked up with the Governor it didn’t seem like she was jumping into bed particularly quickly, but what did strike me was that she managed to jump into bed with the ruler of the whole town, who also appeared to already have a girlfriend. If you ask me, her love life has proven her to be opportunistic and ambitious more than promiscuous. I’ve been waiting for the Gov’s old girlfriend (the tour guide from their first day in Woodbury) to make another appearance. She can’t be too happy about being kicked out of bed by the new girl!
He did, but that was before the woman that Merle claimed to have dutifully killed led an assault on his town, broke into his house, killed his zombie daughter and poked his eye out.
I won’t rule out the MerleMole thing (because I won’t rule out anything) but it seems like a lot of trust to place in a guy that fucked him over (even unwittingly), and if that is still the plan, it seems needlessly complicated and awfully risky to first subject Merle and Darryl to the wrath of Woodbury.
On the other hand, this show isn’t about people behaving rationally and the Governor is, of course, extra-extra crazy, so who knows?
I’m hoping that the impending influx of zombies is what allows Daryl and Merle to escape.
Oh, and Andrea has had sex with two guys in a year. That’s downright modest in my world, and my world isn’t one where you can’t expect to be alive from hour to hour. In Andrea’s world, sex certainly wouldn’t be one’s top priority, but there’s absolutely no reason to engage The Rules when the opportunity presents itself.
If Andrea is promiscuous for how quickly she fell into bed with the Governor then it is no more promiscuous than Maggie and Glenn for how quickly they were going at it (only a couple days in the timeline of last season) and not a lot more promiscuous than Lori in moving to Shane’s bed after thinking Rick had died.
Or T Dog and Herschel (though their love remained off camera since they knew T Dog would be dead as soon as a fresh token black person was found).
I read it that zombie Penny did respond to the music and/or her father’s voice, but once she noticed the meat, she was a mindless zombie again. But I am eager for signs of sentience from the zombies, so I need to rewatch that scene to make sure my take can be justified.
Agreed, it might happen, but it won’t strike me as believeable if it does. And if The Governor has no intention of moving Woodbury to the prison, why is he so fixated on it? Just stamping out potential competition? I had thought he might take a chosen handful of residents and abandon the rest of Woodbury to move to the prison full-time, but that doesn’t seem to be the case.
That’s one of the problems with the show, the “world” feels very small. There’s a clear delineation between Characters and characters; people who matter and influence the story, and people who are just there to fill space. It feels artificial, compared to a show like Justified that etches out memorable supporting characters on a weekly basis, and has a big, lived-in, living world.
That’s a good point, she certainly has a thing for powerful, immoral men. “Opportunistic and ambitious” is about right. The show does spend a fair amount of time on the characters’ sexual lives, so they are fair game for analysis. I think Andrea’s speaks to being a bad person, when accompanied by her other flaws.
You are correct on Glenn and Maggie; I think it was about 2 days. That said, I think the show served them better. Maggie initiated the sex after Glenn had comforted her over the loss of Otis, afterwards she dismissed it as a one-time thing, probably a distraction from her grief, to Glenn’s dismay The two slowly, fitfully, came to realize a full, real, loving relationship.
Andrea’s relationship with The Governor, by way of contrast, is tainted by his having a different lover immediately beforehand, by the benefits and power Andrea gained by it, by her choosing The Governor over her close companion and ally Michonne (twice!), and by their mutual awfulness. In contrast, Glenn and Maggie seem much more “pure.”
Lori and Shane’s relationship is harder to analyze, because it occured almost entirely offscreen.
So any bets on how long V-Dog will last?
It would make sense if woodbury ran patrols that killed the closest zombies on a regular basis. So maybe zombies on the outer edge of the sound range for the gunshots did start coming, but it’ll take them 30-90 minutes to get there. Not implausible.
Purity, huh? Interesting.
Just as a sidebar; I’ve noticed all over the internet people up in arms about killing Oscar as soon as Tyrese was introduced. I’m not sure I understand the sentiment. The show is rather even handed with its deaths of all races, i.e. white people are killed off at the same rate. The fact the show CAN’T kill off a black character without an uproar (albeit one in the form of a muted, unimportant internet forum uproar) seems, I dunno, just as racist as people who allege the showrunners are lopsided in their portrayal of black characters.
Pure as in genuine, lacking in ulterior motives.
That’s what I figured; gunshots, particularly from rifles, do carry quite a ways, and zombies are slow, so a large group of zombies might shuffle in after a few hours and menace Woodbury. If they send off an expeditionary force to attack the prison before the zombies arrive, Woodbury might fall, motivating The Governor to try drive out Rick’s group and occupy the prison himself.
The details are where I find problems with the show’s treatment of African-American males. T-Dog was resigned to background status; the only time he voiced a real opinion about the a decision the group made was right before he was killed, and that opinion was to sympathize with the convicts.
Oscar, who was just as mute and passive as T-Dog, was introduced in episode 302. The prison group didn’t feature in episode 303. T-Dog died in episode 304.
Tyreese was introduced in episode 308. Oscar died in episode 308.
It’s not black people dying that’s the problem, it’s the apparent quota of one such character allowed at a time, and how marginalized they are when they are alive.