The World's Ten Worst Dictators.

Great Debates
21

How about we try this on for size: Whenever you adopt a philosophy that says the individual is subservient to a group or a nation, you create the conditions for dictators to arise. On the right, you get the ultra-nationalists who convince people to let them run the country ‘for the glory of the nation’. Saddam Hussein fits into this category, although he was ostensibly a socialist.

Communism and socialism are dangerous in this regard because they see a ‘higher good’ than the rights of the individual. Communism is pretty much a dictatorship by definition. I know it’s supposed to be a dictatorship of the proletariat, but in reality it always comes down to a ruling class telling the rest of the people what to do. No way around that. And once you have a ruling class, you have people who rise to the top through increasing levels of oppression and brutality. That’s why Communist countries are a breeding ground for the most vile dictators.

That’s why some of us classical liberals fight so hard against the encroachment of the state. Once you accept the concept that the state should take your property and restrict your rights for the greater good, the rest is mere negotiation.

22

Bull and Onie, bucky-boo. You’re saying that for a person to be “left-wing” or “right-wing”, they must espouse ALL the ideals that those ends of the political spectrum supposedly endorse?

Na-a-a-a-ah. If that were the case, NOBODY would be left-wing or right-wing.

Hell, I’m a big gun nut, think gubmint should be small, and typically identify with fiscal conservatives. Guess I’m right-wing, eh?

BUT WAIT!!! Trumpets blare as the messenger speeds into town! “Wait, wait, don’t give him his Right-wing security pass yet!” he declares. “This varmint is also pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, and wants to legalize reefer! He’s a Pinko!”

And then the town grabs some Commie-grade Hang 'Em High rope to string up poor SPOOFE from the nearest tree, for being such a sissy lib’ral bastard…

The moral of the story: Ah, I forget…

23

Ummm. I beginning to see my problem. My problem is that you people
don’t get my jokes. And you people don’t seem to get my debating
points. Is it me? I wonder…

Be patient El_Kabong, the good folk at Yahoo have yet to see fit
to return my call. They will and I will report my findings.

Must I prove that the sky is blue to the colorblind? How on God’s green
Earth do you think that Saddam got the jack to build seven palaces?
What is great about being the Dictator if you can’t redistribute the
wealth of the nation to yourself and your cronies? Geez.

Wrongo Titobenito, to the rest of the world “favoring traditional
views and values and tending to oppose change” is viewed as " Conservatism".
Right-wing beliefs are founded in less government for all
and greater personal control over our own destiny.

Who, Captain?

Stop it bizzwire, yeah, you like two other posters to this thread noticed the awkward wording of Parade’s list of “Worst” Dictators.
But hey! You wouldn’t want a list of the world’s “Greatest Dictators”
would you?

24

I take issue with that. Aside from the fact that neither all Democrats nor all Republicans have the same opinion, I think you’ll find that, depending on the issue, those labels can change. If you meant the current Dems and Pubs, then I would be inclined to agree with you about the Republicans, but the democrats would also be more authoritarian than libertarian (although not as much the republicans).

As to the OP, if there are “left-wing” dictatorships there are certainly “right-wing” dictatorships. You haven’t defined what “left” or “right” means, and if you think that leftist dictatorships evolve more easily from (I presume) moderate leftist governments than rightist dictatorships from moderate right governments, you’ll have to do so. As far as I can see, the only way that could be true is if “right” means libertarian-leaning (small central government) and “left” means authoritarian-leaning (strong central governement), but I would have to disagree with that assertion.

25

Bolding mine.

So, royalists are leftists, eh?

As soon as someone becomes a dicator, they by definition cease to be a liberal. Liberals believe in freedom–it is, after all, the very root of the word itself–and a “liberal dictator” or a “liberal tyranny” is a contradiction in terms. (Unless you want to argue that a dictator could exist in some circumstances without infringing on freedom, but that would be a whole other thread.)

Therefore, to the extent that any ideology–Marxism-Leninism, say–can genuinely said to contain a tendency towards dictatorship or tyranny, it cannot be said to be “liberal”, nor can true liberalism be said to have any “tendencies in the direction of” any such ideology or philosophy as might have dictatorial or tyrannical tendencies. Any political taxonomy–any “spectrum” or what-have-you–which lumps together liberalism with, e.g, Stalinism, is therefore false. Since the terms “left-wing” and “leftist” have traditionally lumped together liberals and such groups as Soviet-style Communists, Maoists, etc. as being on the same “side” of the “political spectrum” or being on the same political “wing”, the terms “left” or “leftist” in politics are meaningless and should not be used. It would also seem reasonable that if there is no “left”, we ought not use the term “the right”, either.

Also, no true liberal puts sugar on his porridge.

26

I’d be inclined to be suspicious of any “list of the worst dictators” that didn’t have Pol Pot on it.

I mean, if killing between a fifth and a quarter of your own country’s population isn’t enough to get you on the list, what IS?

27

The list is of dictators who are currently in power. Were you get all 20th-century and such, Hitler, Stalin and Mao would easily top ol’ PP, though you might get arguments over which was the worst of the trio.

28

In addition to Hu Jintao, whom TitoBenito noted, Crown Prince Abdullah does not belong on the list. Abdullah is not a dictator, he is merely in line to be King when Fahd dies. However, even though he is effectively “in charge” of the government, what with Fahd being practically dead, power is exercised by many different factions of the House of Saud, including those headed by Princes Abdul-Aziz, Nayef, and Sultan. Abdullah has serious contention within the royal family, and his word does not necessarily go. As much as I despise the Saudi government, it is not accurate to describe Abdullah as a dictator. Furthermore, if anything, Abdullah is one of the more reform-minded princes of SA. Nobody is ideal, but when Fahd dies, Abdullah will hopefully be permitted to ascend to the throne. Otherwise, we could end up with a nationalist like Nayef, a corrupt brat like Abdul-Aziz, or one of our Islamic fundie friends. Sorry for the hijack, but the point is that at least two of the people on the list do not even fit its most minimal requirements.

29

How did Richard J. Daley Jr. miss the cut?

30

I’ll give your joke debating points the old college try, Milum. Using your patented (sorta, kinda) scientific floating point format, I’ve come up with this discovery:

#1 Kim Jong II, North Korea. Age 63

Left wing points: 10 Bonus points: 7 Reasons: Liberals=commies, bonus for being on the axis of evil.

#2 Than Shwe, Burma. Age 71

Left wing points: 10 Reasons: Liberals=commies, Burma is next to Thailand, Thailand is next to Cambodia, Cambodia used to be commie.

#3 Hu Jintao, China. Age 61

Left wing points: 10 Bonus points: -2 Reasons: Liberals=commies, detraction because leftists seem to be upset by that whole Tibet thing.

#4 Robert Mugabe, Zimbawe. Age 80

Left wing points: 10 Reasons: He redistributed the land, hence leftist commie.

#5 Crown Prince Abdullah, Saudi Arabia. Age 80

Left wing points: 10 Bonus points: 4 Reasons: Islamic=evil=leftist. Bonus points since the 9/11 hijackers came from Saudi Arabia, total bonus would have been higher but they’re still our dictatorship.

#6 Teodoro Obiang Nguema, Equatorial Guinea. Age 61

Left wing points: 10 Bonus points: ? Reasons: Must be bad, bad=leftist. Where is this country anyway?

#7 Omar Al-Bashir, Sudan. Age 59

Left wing points: 10 Bonus points: 9 Reasons: Arabic sounding name=evil. Bonus because the neo-cons want to kick them out.

#8 Saparmurat Niyazov, Turkmenista. Age 64

Left wing points: 10 Bonus points: 5 Reasons: Former Soviet republic, and liberals=commies.

#9 Fidel Castro, Cuba. Age 77

Left wing points: 10 Bonus points: -5 Reasons: Liberals=commies, bonus detraction since even JFK wanted to knock him off, though he messed it up.

#10 king Mswati III, Swaziland. Age 35

Left wing points: 10 Bonus points: 2 Reasons: Okay, this is where the otherwise irrelevant age comes into play. Young folks are leftists, but become good rightists if they age properly. As he’s the youngest of them, he must be a left winger.

Really, Milum, there’s a reason it’s called Great Debates and not Great Jokes.

31

In my opinion, the problem is that
you’re not very funny.

I’m starting to think so, yeah. Your primary point seems to be that the left are a bunch of dictator-loving meanies.

32

I have yet to see one. At least an intentional one.

I have yet to see one.

Yes.

33

Is there some kind of metric for World’s Worst Dictator?
Total Dictator Ranking = (# people killed)/(current population of country)*10000 + (# political prisoners detained in thousands)/(current population of country)*5000 + (UN condemnations)/3 + (wars started) + (war crimes convictions) + (campaigns of genocide)*2

Kind of like a quarterback rating for dictators? So if you kill 0.1% of your population, then you get 10 points, plus another 0.1% in prison is another 5 points, get 6 condemnations from the UN is 2 points plus one conviction in absentia from the ICC is 1 plus a purge of all intellectuals is another 2 for a grand total of 20?

Can we assign these guys numbers? Kim Jong Il would certainly get some credit for the deaths in famine that are almost exclusively due to his policies. Some cites put that at around 2 million. The current population of NK is 22.5 million according to the CIA factbook. That puts the first number at a stunning 888.8. I don’t think it is fair to attribute all of these deaths to him, but for the moment I am leaving it at this.

He has by some estimates 200,000 prisoners in a Gulag system. So add another 44.4.

UN condemnations – China blocked the July 2003 UN SC one; I’m not aware of any others.

Wars started, war crimes convictions, genocide campaigns – none yet.

So, Total Dictator Ranking = 888.8 + 44.4 = 932.4, attributing all famine deaths to him.

34

The problem, friend Milum, is it’s so hard to tell which of your gems are debating points, and which are jokes. Perhaps you should assign them ratings on a floating-point scale, where 0.0 is “pure joke” and 10.0 is “pure debating point”; then you can color code each sentence according to the scale, and we’ll know exactly which points we should take seriously and which we can disregard.

For example:

35

Marshal Petain was the nominal ruler of Vichy France during WWII. He was largely a figurehead, though.

And, part of the problem is that generally “right-wing” isn’t defined as “less government for all and greater personal control over our own destiny.”

“Right wing” is usually defined as “Being on the conservative side of a country’s ideological spectrum”, and historically, in a lot of countries, “right wing” parties didn’t support less goverment and greater personal control over individual destiny. They tended to be monarchist parties that supported a well defined and stratified class system, and restrictions on political and civil rights. It was the liberal parties, who started off as “left wing”, and then after the growth of socialism, occupied the “center”, who supported less government and greater individual control over our destinies.

36

I know! I know!

Moldova.

From the State Department: "On February 25, [2000,] parliamentary elections were held, which resulted in a new communist-majority Parliament and Government. International observers considered the parliamentary elections to be generally free and fair… On April 4, Parliament elected Communist Party leader Vladimir Voronin as President. "

What do I win, Milum?