Stargazer, Freedom2, and some others have brought up the notion that the evil in the world (particularly the natural sort - people get cancer, killed by tornadoes, etc) is explainable by the omniscience of God. That is, these things that seem painful, disastrous, and evil to us are God’s way of achieving a “greater good”. We just can’t see the goodness from our limited view of things.
I think this is a complete cop-out. What you’re really saying here is that there’s no such thing as evil at all. Now, I can respect this kind of belief, but it is not relevant to the OP (and many other peoples) question about reconciling the benevolence of God and the existance of evil. You guys are just saying evil doesn’t exist.
Your arguement goes like this. God is good. God controls everything that happens. If something happens then it is good. If you think it’s bad, that’s because you don’t understand - go back to step one.
You’re saying that evil doesn’t exist, there are only things in the world that we think are evil. You guys don’t belong in this conversation (not that your posts are off-topic, mind you). Some of us think that there’s something really wrong when cancer takes the life of a 9 year old. Or something’s wrong when a tornado kills a churchful of worshipers in the act of worship. Mudslides bury shoolfuls of children. Are you telling me that HIV, polio, and colera have some earthly useful purpose?
I said nothing of the sort. I merely saw another thread that looked similiar to what you guys were talking about, and linked it in case you wanted to look at it.
I should have put one of those tV infomercial disclaimers at the end.
This link does not reflect the views of this station or it’s employees…
Freedom2, I was careless with my pronouns. The "you"s and “yours” in my post was aimed at anyone in the audience who might agree with the content of your quote.
one: who ever said that God (in this case the Lord from the many versions of the Holy bible) created Good and Evil? I remember he/she/it ‘creating’ the universe and all that jazz, and I remember it was all ‘good’. I just don’t remember the creation of Good itself.
two: Good and Evil are concepts. God and Evil are opposites. You can’t define Good with out defining Evil (and vice versa.) In a similar vein, how can you attribute the Lord as being Good without having a counterpart to that?
three:Words are unspoken pictures. If I have a painting of an apple, I do not have an apple. I have a representation of one, just as the word ‘apple’ conjures the image of one, etc etc.
In any story, fictional or otherwise, you need a good guy and a bad guy. If I watched one of those old Batman episodes, and there was no Joker, what in the hell would Batman and Robin do all the time? Cook brownies, perhaps? If all Batman and Robin did was sit on their asses all day knitting, why would the general public watch their show? That’s why we have bad guys. They are there to convince the audience that they should be cheering for their heroes, in this case, Batman and Robin. Anyways, I do have a point, actually. If God was just an all powerful being who sat on his ass all day, no one would give a damn. So the whole idea of Satan came about so that God would have something to do all day and so that mankind would think that he is a vital and useful being and therefore worship him. Whew. I’m exhausted now after typing all of this. I think I’ll go watch Batman.
broccoli:
you bring up an interesting point, about the possibility of God not being the creator of Good and Evil. So, then, I’m curious; how did they come about, or at least what are some possibilities? If God didn’t create them, then he would kinda be abiding by an already-set rule system, so if God doesn’t make the rules, who does? And doesn’t this sort of undermine his omnipotence, if he is subject to any rules? If Good and Evil predated God, wouldn’t that imply the universe existed before him as well, because how could Good and Evil exist “in a vacuum”; in other words, how could they “exist” without a system through which they could be demonstrated, i.e. the world or universe? Or maybe you’re saying that God, Good, and Evil just existed simultaneously from the “beginning of time,” if there is such a thing. Given that, however, if God’s omnipotent, he should be able to eradicate Evil in one fell swoop, so why wouldn’t he?
The common response to this has, thus far, been along the lines of “maybe God knows that we need a certain amount of evil, and he’s in a better position to judge than we are.” However, I don’t like this response for several reasons; one, it seems to me an appeal to his “mysterious ways” which I have never bought; to me that is just an admission of total lack of ability to explain one’s position, especially when we get into the realm of things that we could never understand to be beneficial in any way. I mean, for example, can you really argue that a baby that suffocates in its sleep is in some way needed? If that’s divine logic, and he’s in a better position to judge than us, I’d like to know how he got the job!!!
It clearly states in the Bible (Torah) that God creates both good and evil (Deut. 30:15 & Isaiah 45:7). However, which you choose is up to you. He set down the rules, set before people choices, both good and evil, and then allow them to choose their own path. God did not loose control somewhere along the line (there is no dualism, no rebellion of Satan kind of thing), everything is there for a purpose, which brings us back around to free will. Both must exist for a choice to be made, and both come from one source.
The question should be why do people choose to do evil.
Is it the governement’s fault I got a speeding ticket two weeks ago? There was a speed limit, and I had the choice to obey that law or to ignore the law. I made the choice and now must pay the price ($95 by the way!). Who is at fault, the state for making the law, the car companies for allowing cars to go faster than the speed limit, or the person behind the wheel?
If you look at the stories in the Bible (Torah), the ones that people are so quickly to point out what a mean, vengeful Being God is, it shows that there are consequences to our actions. If we break the rules, there is a price to pay. And sometimes those choices effect innocents. It is still OUR choice, and those choices don’t just effect us as individuals. That is the moral of the stories.
No, it’s an appeal to his omniscience, which ** you’ve already granted for the purposes of the argument.** Unless you want to claim you’re omniscient too and can argue the point with him…
Oh come on! While I’m all for debating, at least don’t make such spurious arguments in what could be considered an attempt to muddy the waters. Posit and omniscient god etc… and none of life makes sense from that point of view.
Let’s say a baby drowns in the bath. Is it God’s fault a baby drowned? Is it God’s fault that the child was born to a careless parent? Is it God’s fault the parent never learned responsibility? Is it God’s fault… Where do you draw the line if you’re going to find God at cause for everything?
Just because an insurance company calls a hurricane an “Act of God” doesn’t mean he reached down and stirred the winds up a bit.
The world operates according to known physical rules. At some point you have to realise that God set those rules. Could He have set them up so that nothing bad could ever happen to anyone ever? Maybe. (Maybe not. We’ll debate if God can make 1 = 2 some other time…)
But then what would be the point of existance at all?
When we ask why does anything bad ever happen to anyone (nevermind just good people) you cannot answer “God did it.”
The laws of physics are in place,
And there is random chaos in the world.
You don’t like it?
Kill yourself (How do you do an Evil grin in these things?)
nevermore said “…, so if God doesn’t make the rules, who does? And doesn’t this sort of undermine his omnipotence, if he is subject to any rules?”
Have you read Bertrand Russel’s “Why I am not a Christian”? He hits this point. His take is: If God declares what is good and evil, then with respect to God himself, good and evil do not exist. Saying, then, that “God is good” is an arbirtrary and meaningless statement. OTOH, if good and evil exist for God, then he’s such a supreme being.
Mayor Quimby - thank you for pointing out these verses. You avoid the dilema in the OP altogether. God made evil. I would conclude that he’s not omnibenevolent.
John Finian said, “Just because an insurance company calls a hurricane an “Act of God” doesn’t mean he reached down and stirred the winds up a bit.” Now that’s a spurious argument. I brought up the Act of God bit in this thread, and I certainly wasn’t appealing to the authority of any insurance company! When I hear people say this, my reaction is that the God they’re talking about is Malevolent. You seem to be saying that god sets up the rules of physics (which certainly allow for natural evil), and then sits back and watches. In my view, that’s indifference, not benevolence. But then, I’m not sure I see your point - are you saying that god is or is not benevolent when a baby drowns?
“Could He have set them up so that nothing bad could ever happen to anyone ever? Maybe. (Maybe not. …)
But then what would be the point of existance at all?”
I think Christians (at least) talk of a place where nothing bad happens. Hmm, I think it’s called Heaven. Is there a point to existance in Heaven?
I don’t know if I did avoid this or not. I still claim that God is omnibenevolent, at least in the definition given in the OP. By saying God does not create evil, this is saying that God is not in control. However, this does not disqualify God on being just and merciful, holy and perfect. It falls into “the means justifing the end” sort of category. However, it probably overlaps the “mysterious ways” defense. Why the baby drowns in the hurricane and the reasoning behind it is not known. But for those who believe, they have a choice. They can curse God for it happening, or they can accept it as His will and it must fit into the universal plan somehow. For those who don’t believe I can understand how this can be difficult to understand. That is, in part, what faith is about.
As for a point for existance in the world to come (heaven), it’s all speculation because it is not really elaborated on in the scriptures. What is eleborated on is this world. Our actions and attitudes towards one another, and a respect for the rules set forth. I trust God enough to know that if I live life while respecting others, respecting the rules given because I respect God, and have respect for myself, then the world to come (whatever that entails) will have a spot for me in it.
But my concern is on this world and this life. And, if I’m wrong in the end, then I still lived a good life and enjoyed living it as well.
Yes it is, but the point is made. At some point, you’ve got to stop holding God accountable for every occurance and circumstance or your just eroding the signifigance of free will by saying we can’t have negative consequences to the laws of physics.
In your view, yes. Not necessarily God’s. Maybe free will is such an incredible gift that it’s worth the price of natural evil. And maybe those victims of natural evil are “compensated” in some way. Or maybe we [as a species] are, in the long term. The point is we have a very limited perspective, and God doesn’t. So who are we to judge?
I’m saying stop bringing God into it. Life isn’t perfect. But we’re here. Therefore, we’re here for some (unknowable) purpose, because if there wasn’t a point to it, then why have life at all? Why not just make us all automaton angels singing God’s praises for eternity?
It might sound sacriligious to some, but no. There isn’t. At least not going by what little scripture has to say on the subject.
Unless you think an eternity of praising and getting closer to God, and getting to know God, might hold some meaning.
I can think of worse ways to spend my time than eternally learning at the feet of a more intelligent being. [Forgive the anthropomorphism.]
What was God before the creation of good? I don’t know, this is beyond mr frame of reference. It’s like the question “What was God doing before he created time and space”? I don’t know that one either. I only know of existence with good and evil, space and time. I can’t fathom the non-existance of any of these concepts. I can try, but I don’t see the point in it.
well, God (being transcendant & all) is technically beyond your frame of reference too, but you seem to know an awful lot about him.
In any case, the question’s rhetorical–no one’s really gonna know the answer; it’s just meant to be thought-provoking. broccoli was just bringing up an inconsistency in the assertion that God created good and evil: if God “created” them, implying that neither concept existed beforehand, God couldn’t have been good before he created it.
John Finnan:
I most certainly was not attempting to “muddy the waters”; I don’t know where you got that. The point I was trying to make was that, when people can’t justify something in terms of God’s goodness, they tend to make the (ignorant, IMHO) statement that “God works in mysterious ways”, and I don’t like that because to me it’s a cop-out. Maybe that’s just because I refuse to believe that anything could be so high and almighty that I couldn’t even conceive of it; that just makes me want to go “try me.” I wasn’t trying to blame everything on God; I was not saying that a baby suffocating in its sleep would be an act of God and not just the physical world at work–I, of course, believe the latter; I don’t believe in God. I was simply saying that according to people who use the “mysterious ways” argument, everything is attributed to God, and is ultimately good or serves a higher good. If this were assumed to be true, I’d like God to explain to me how the hell a baby dying in its sleep serves a higher good! THAT was my point. Now put the poor strawman down.
nevermore:
I’m using my main reference for God as the Bible, but know better to use biblical quotes in a debate. I choose those words as reference, but the interpretation comes in part from my own constructs and in part from the constructs of others. I don’t see God as being out of my frame of reference, but will readily admit that my knowlegde is limited.
Neither concept existed beforehand because we did not exist before hand. That is my point. I believe that God’s character did not change (that Bible thing again as my frame of reference) before us. However, our existence and experience allows us to call things good and evil, including God.
Only according to what he (allegedly) revealed about himself.
Nicely reasoned, but it could be arguing from false premises completely. Consider that Time also had a begining and as such, the question of what was God like “before” is equally meaningless.
From the spurious argument I referred to in a previous post. Specious arguments often serve that purpose. Note I didn’t accuse you, just said some could interpret it that way. Anyway, I’m getting off the point.
I’d agree.
I don’t think people should be justifying anything in terms of God’s goodness or lack of same. I say again, who are we to judge? Also, who even says God interferes on a day to day basis with his creation?
So you’re arguing from arrogance? That’s not playing fair. You’re allowing us to posit an omniscient god but not allowing him to know something you can’t?
Try teaching tensor calculus to third graders.
Well that’s a different thing altogether than your OP.
Now, it’s not like I believe this myself, so I’m not arguing from creed here, just playing devil’s advocate. But let’s suppose the baby in question is dying from a painful disease. Or dies from smoke inhalation, as opposed to being burned alive in a house fire.
Now you can no doubt rephrase the question and say “that’s not what I meant” and specify a perfectly healthy baby in a good home etc… and make as many additional conditionals as you like, but ultimately it comes down to this.
Since you didn’t specify them originally, the facts surrounding the baby are open to interpretation. Since you are not omniscient (but God is, by your supposition) it is possible that God knows something about the childs circumstances that you don’t and therefore, dying is the “right” thing to do. (Perhaps not even as an isolated incident, but considering the world as a whole. Even Hitler was a baby once.
Here’s a question…(and I’m playing devils advocate here )who says God is the ‘good’ one?
So far we are assuming that God is ‘goodness’. But there are many parts of the bible where God kills people at will because he doesn’t like what they are doing and is refered to as the God of War. (Or something to that effect.)
If He was anyone but the ‘devine creator’, would people not consider Him…well…a mass murderer?
Just something that crossed my mind…has anyone interprated the Bible this way?
Yeah, Double – there was a thread maybe two or three months back discussing how many people God had killed in the Bible. My own take on this: if I were a leader back then, and I wanted to start a war, and I had a God who said killing was wrong, I’d certaintly certaintly claim God came to me in a vision or whatever and told me that my people should go kill those people. And if your tribe was lucky enough to win, you’d probably but it in the record books. For people 5000 years later to complain that somewhere in the back of the book that God is running around slaughtering people is somewhat unfair. That doesn’t mean God isn’t just though, and a lot of the old passages can be seen in this light. Even Jesus said he didn’t come to bring peace and he was a victim of that unpeace himself. Yet he did come to bring peace to those who head his word and kept it. Anyway, I’ve never been a fundie – even Jesus thought people who relies on sola scriptura were inevitably going to miss the point.
(How do you do an Evil grin in these things?)
)who says God is the ‘good’ one?