"There is no God" is an opinion, not a fact.

[joyfool]

One last attempt to even try to corral it down to (as close as I can get) one liners. If it doesn’t fly this time, I’m throwing in the towel and going back to just reading. But first…

To Lord Ashtar: Your welcome. When people make strides in their personal growth, of their own volition, that should be recognized and commended. There’s too much negativity in the world and not nearly enough positve. Thank you for trying your best to help reach that balance.

To Polycarp and gum: Thank you for including me in such esteemed company. To have your faith in me, put out there for the whole Doper world to see, is extremely confidence-building. It truly means the world to me and makes me want to continue my pursuit of wisdom and Christ-like love. Even if I don’t adhere to all Christian beliefs. Again, I am awed and beyond appreciative. Have I told y’all lately just how much you both rock?

And to Orbifold, lee, Triskadecamus, yosemite and Lobsang (plus any others I might have missed/forgotten over the length of this monster thread – hey, just like my posts): It’s important to know that there are others who really don’t fit any either, or any, category, that appreciate your consistent good fight for mutual respect and tolerance, without disregard, condescension or pejoratives. They are many they do listen and take your kindness to heart. Stay strong because there are a lot that need to hear that message and become a better person for it.

Now here is my best shot at brevity (in hopes of luring anyone else into answering my questions)… and if you are actually interested, the only part necessary to read is between the squiggly lines.

::: crosses fingers, toes, legs

1)  Is presentation not part and parcel to getting others to consider an opposing opinion?

2.)  Is broad-brush stroking necessary for those who are above derision, due to the action of others?

3.)  Would you want the same judgment put to you because of someone else?  Aren't all stereotypes true?  Including this one.  (paraphrase props to George Carlin)

4.)  Thoughts often times speak louder than words, especially here in a text-based medium.  Isn't it possible to simply pause before slinging out hostile words and hitting 'submit'?  A count to ten, reverse application and then the advice of the Golden Rule should be all it takes.  

What?  That process accounts for maybe two minutes, tops.

5.)  Why are we (collective) the ones who take it upon ourselves to disabuse someone of their "delusion"?  Only if it truly harms should it be pursued.  Hopefully with tact and a desire for enlightenment.

Sadly, I can do no better than that. If they ain’t heard this time, I’ll turn this over to those much smarter, and eloquent, then me.

Lastly, at least in this thread, I’ve for the most part, only seen those who don’t believe in God as particularly stubborn. Now, any who do are just as strongly stating their beliefs and why they’ll stick to them. However, they’re not being rude or throwing out ad hominem quasi-attacks. Just standing firm and trying to prevent castigation of their faith. The ‘atheist’ side, for lack of a better word, comes across as vehement and superior. IMHO.

[Kalhoun]

@Johnny Bravo

Not your actions, gobear, your state of mind. That ridiculous “I’m right. You’re wrong. Too bad you don’t have the faith/intellect/whatever to understand that I’m informed and you’re ignorant.”

Why do you feel the need to compare people’s deep-set, fundamental belief systems to “invisible pixies?” Why do you feel the need to rain down pejoratives? “Godder BS?” Where the hell does that come from?

You come across as no more tolerant than any hardcore baptist I’ve ever seen screaming hellfire and brimstone.

Except he’s not trying to sell anyone a bill of goods. THe rest of you are basing your life on something that you have no shred of evidence exists. And stirring it into nearly every aspect of everyone else’s life. Actually, if I’m going to fault Gobear, it will be for being entirely too quiet with his viewpoint. One has to raise the volume a bit to drown out the other side.

[gobear]

@Kalhoun

Except he’s not trying to sell anyone a bill of goods. THe rest of you are basing your life on something that you have no shred of evidence exists. And stirring it into nearly every aspect of everyone else’s life. Actually, if I’m going to fault Gobear, it will be for being entirely too quiet with his viewpoint. One has to raise the volume a bit to drown out the other side.

Except that I have no wish to drown out the other side. One doesn’t win by shouting, but by crushing one’s opponent in the iron grip of reason.

[Meatros]

@Loopydude

OK. I was never good at keeping all these philosophical terms straight. I guess I’m at something of a loss to catagorize myself then. I suppose I must be an agnostic atheist, or a “soft” atheist, as DtC mentioned. I find it somewhat oxymoronic to say someone lacks certainty about God’s existence, yet believes. I would simply put all folks on a continuum of belief, or lack thereof, but language fails us when it comes to rendering accurate descriptions in such a framework, I suppose. I put myself in the “Who truly knows?” catagory, with the caveat that those who think they do know lack proofs, and hold no special insight.

People do lack certainty in God’s existence yet still believe. IIRC there is an article somewhere on the II Kiosk about an agnostic theistic preacher.

Also, IIRC agnosticism should refer to more then just whether you can know if God exists or not-as gnosticism actually entails knowing through specials means (such as experience, I think) about God.

[joyfool]

General reply follows…

I want to acknowledge Lilairen as part of the group fighting for equality in regards to respect. Her posts have been very well thought-out, considerate and intelligent. Thank you for your contribution.

And to Contrapuntal, you make an excellent point. Now if only we can get everyone lined up in a row to be as least as civil and understandable to the masses, rather than purely factual, scientific and abrupt.

My hat’s off to you guys.

[Loopydude]

What’s the matter with being factual, scientific, and abrubt?

[Voyager]

@Othersider

Heh. What evidence? God got rid of it all.

And replaced it with evidence that it didn’t happen - are you sure you don’t believe in Loki?

Actually, take a look at talkorigins.org for all the evidence that the flood did not and could not have happened. The energy release from all that rain falling would have incinerated the earth, for one thing.

When you get down to it, how can you be sure that the world wasn’t created last Thursday by my dog? (I’m heretical about this, since my dog is much smarter than any cat )

[joyfool]

@Loopydude

What’s the matter with being factual, scientific, and abrubt?

Is that the only thing you saw? There were questions before that. Really. And different (longer) versions of that I have now posted three other times. If that is what you walk away with, I give up and would rather do something productive, like bang my head against the wall.

Y’all have at it. Unless someone is interested in actually answering anything I post. Thanks for (not) playing.

[gobear]

@Loopydude

What’s the matter with being factual, scientific, and abrubt?

I suspect it’s the same reason that people who e-mail glurge get angry when you respond with a Snopes article debunking it.

[Lord_Ashtar]

@Kalhoun

Except he’s not trying to sell anyone a bill of goods. The rest of you are basing your life on something that you have no shred of evidence exists. And stirring it into nearly every aspect of everyone else’s life. Actually, if I’m going to fault Gobear, it will be for being entirely too quiet with his viewpoint. One has to raise the volume a bit to drown out the other side.

There’s that hasty generalization again. Not all theists are trying to force their beliefs on you. Maybe witness a bit, but that’s it. I can only speak for myself here, but if I’m witnessing to someone and they show me that they are not in the least bit receptive, I bid them good day and continue on my way.

Your above quote lumps me, Poly, Tris, and a lot of others in with Fred Phelps and his ilk. That’s extraordinarily insulting.

[joyfool]

@gobear

I suspect it’s the same reason that people who e-mail glurge get angry when you respond with a Snopes article debunking it.

Not so here. I HATE anyone sending me glurge and no longer give out my address to them. I’m an avid snopester and back in the day when I allowed said people to inundate my inbox, I sent links too. I discontinued that because it was pointless.

Here though, with the intelligence level running so high, I really assumed something as simplistic as the concept of common courteousy would be generally grasped.

[Dob]

Well after reading 6 pages of posts two things are clear:

1. gobear is a dick. I hope in real life you dont express your opinions by belittling the opinions of others.

2. As I have said before, religion is the cause of more violence and hatred than any other single source in the history of the world. Only a thread like this can make a board full of smart, articulate people, turn into a bunch of name calling haters.

BTW, I do believe in God, but I dont believe a person needs established religion to find him/her.

[Loopydude]

@faithfool

Is that the only thing you saw? There were questions before that. Really. And different (longer) versions of that I have now posted three other times. If that is what you walk away with, I give up and would rather do something productive, like bang my head against the wall.

Y’all have at it. Unless someone is interested in actually answering anything I post. Thanks for (not) playing.

What have I missed? You’re telling me cutting through the bullshit and saying what I really mean is inappropriate somehow. It’s not clear to me why that is. It seems, in our mind, plain speech is tantamount to mortal rudeness, and I just don’t see it. You find me brusque? Fine, I’m brusque. What of it? What crime or misdemeanor have I committed? How have I limited the free expression of others, and when have I asked to be coddled?

[gobear]

@Dob

Well after reading 6 pages of posts two things are clear:

1. gobear is a dick. I hope in real life you dont express your opinions by belittling the opinions of others.

Is this the first thread you’ve ever read on this board? People here belittle each other’s opinions all the time, mostly in political threads.

[Lobsang]

@Loopydude

What have I missed? You’re telling me cutting through the bullshit and saying what I really mean is inappropriate somehow. It’s not clear to me why that is. It seems, in our mind, plain speech is tantamount to mortal rudeness, and I just don’t see it. You find me brusque? Fine, I’m brusque. What of it? What crime or misdemeanor have I committed? How have I limited the free expression of others, and when have I asked to be coddled?

In a recent thread about a doper’s transequality, one poster had nothing to say but “you’re still a man you know” (not those words)

There are times when saying what you mean is inappropriate.

[Loopydude]

I think that was a thread about a poster who basically “rained on someone’s parade”. The OP introduced herself as a male-to-female transsexual, and simply wished to share her experience to a supportive audience. I don’t run into churches and yell “I think you’re all deluded!” during Sunday service, not the least because I don’t know if that’s true of all present, but mostly because nobody asked or challenged the assumption. If people are going to start a thread to engage in a debate or rant, again, in the Pit especially, and still can’t abide plain speech, then I fail to see how I’m the person acting inappropriately.

[Dob]

Is this the first thread you’ve ever read on this board? People here belittle each other’s opinions all the time, mostly in political threads.

Ohhhh…well that makes it okay then, everyone does it! silly me…

[joyfool]

@Loopydude

What have I missed? You’re telling me cutting through the bullshit and saying what I really mean is inappropriate somehow. It’s not clear to me why that is. It seems, in our mind, plain speech is tantamount to mortal rudeness, and I just don’t see it. You find me brusque? Fine, I’m brusque. What of it? What crime or misdemeanor have I committed? How have I limited the free expression of others, and when have I asked to be coddled?

This is what you missed…

1. Is presentation not part and parcel to getting others to consider an opposing opinion?

2.) Is broad-brush stroking necessary for those who are above derision, due to the action of others?

3.) Would you want the same judgment put to you because of someone else? Aren’t all stereotypes true? Including this one. (paraphrase props to George Carlin)

4.) Thoughts often times speak louder than words, especially here in a text-based medium. Isn’t it possible to simply pause before slinging out hostile words and hitting ‘submit’? A count to ten, reverse application and then the advice of the Golden Rule should be all it takes.

What? That process accounts for maybe two minutes, tops.

5.) Why are we (collective) the ones who take it upon ourselves to disabuse someone of their “delusion”? Only if it truly harms should it be pursued. Hopefully with tact and a desire for enlightenment.

From my next-to-last post above. How hard is it to answer six simple (now) questions? Good Lord, this isn’t a difficult idea to grasp. The people that I don’t give my email out to are close-minded. Why? Because they believe only one way, damn everyone else and their evidence, rationale or facts, and THAT is the way to go. Wash, rinse and repeat.

On the Dope though, I expect better. I feel we all should be adult enough to give another view point the benefit of the doubt.

But just like you ignoring my specific queries, that isn’t polite (if you’re going to comment on something else that is, when the OP has repeatedly asked for a response on a certain portion) and dehumanizing. IMHO. And, for example, gobear has now lumped me in with a group I’d never belonged to, because he took into consideration something I’d posted, but hasn’t bothered to comment on any of them directly to me. When I refuted his claim, he hasn’t acknowledged me or apologize.

Maybe in y’all’s world that’s how you prefer it. But just like the Pit thread that Lobsang is referencing below, clothahump didn’t appreciate the same “abruptness” when turned around and used on something he held dear.

[Lobsang]

Looppydude Alright, but IMO it is a mild form of the same thing to constantly try to explain to people that something they love doesn’t exist. It might be done with good intentions but it’s not worth it. The existence of God is too widely believed and too internationally huge an issue that I don’t think it’s doing individuals any favours to keep trying to chip away at their belief.

Imagine trying to convince the mother of a dead child that the child isn’t in heaven, but is nothing more than an underground skeleton.

[gobear]

@Lobsang

In a recent thread about a doper’s transequality, one poster had nothing to say but “you’re still a man you know” (not those words)

There are times when saying what you mean is inappropriate.

But how is affirming a rational secular worldview inappropriate? I certainly wouldn’t crap in a pro-religious thread to do so, but this thread was pitched as a direct challenge to atheists to respond. When is it appropriate in your opinion for an atheist to speak up?

I’m not preaching to anyone, and I’m also not going to shut up and conform as the theists here expect nonbelievers to do.