They want to take away our guns, for what use?

[Buck_Godot]

@Odesio

I have had occasion to dial 911 for multiple reasons over the years and some of the reasons include the following: gun shots alarmingly close to house, a strange man chased my sister as she was coming home from work at 1:00 a.m., my neighbor waking me when he drunkenly threatening to kill his wife , a brawl involving 15+ teenagers in my front yard, a woman shrieking because her significant other was beating her, and someone who was in my garage late, late at night.

Do you know how many times I called the police and they arrived in time to do anything useful? Just once and it was with the 15+ teenager reenacting their favorite Wrestlemania in my front yard. In each case the police arrived within a reasonable amount of time but not within enough time to be helpful if someone was being attacked. I don’t say that as a dig against the police either as they cannot be everywhere at once. But when seconds count the police are often minutes away.

And yet somehow people live in countries with stronger gun laws or who live in the US but don’t own guns fail to be raped and murdered in significantly higher numbers than US gun owners.

[DrDeth]

@Odesio

It was supposed to say pro-gun control. My bad.

You said “pro-gun” twice, whereas clearly one of them was likely anti-gun.

[Gatopescado]

@Lamoral

I’ve read about people ordering guns by mail-order catalog with no background check whatsoever, in previous decades.

That’s how Old Lee Harvey got his bolt action Italian job.

[Odesio]

@Buck_Godot

And yet somehow people live in countries with stronger gun laws or who live in the US but don’t own guns fail to be raped and murdered in significantly higher numbers than US gun owners.

What does that have to do with me in the United States? It might surprise you to know that the police have no constitutional duty to protect me from harm here in the US. But it’s great that people in Great Britain, Germany, and France can rely on the police to respond quickly enough to help out in the middle of a brutal assault but in my experience I cannot rely on the police here in the states. I couldn’t rely on them in Dallas, Colorado Springs, or Little Rock and I don’t trust them to protect me elsewhere.

[Mk_VII]

Foreign persons may not be aware just how rural much of America is. In much of it, if you call the cops it will be half an hour or more before you can expect anybody to arrive, especially at night - and that’s if they aren’t already dealing with something else at the other end of the county.

[Buck_Godot]

Note that I also referred to non-gun owners in the US (maybe you missed that part). If the only way to defend yourself from predators is with a gun, then presumably it would be easy to show that the crime statistics against gun owners are much lower than against non gun owners, but that doesn’t appear to be the case. All you get are anecdotal counts of defensive gun use which as I indicated above may have resolved exactly the same way (or better) without a gun.

Some statistics on the subject.

Will a Gun Keep Your Family Safe? Here’s What the Evidence Says

In 2015, David Hemenway, director of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center, and Sara Solnick, an economist at the University of Vermont, analyzed national government surveys involving more than 14,000 people and reported that guns are used for self-protection in less than 1 percent of all crimes that take place in the presence of a victim. They also found that people were more likely to be injured after threatening attackers with guns than they were if they had called the police or run away.

[Odesio]

@Buck_Godot

Note that I also referred to non-gun owners in the US (maybe you missed that part). If the only way to defend yourself from predators is with a gun, then presumably it would be easy to show that the crime statistics against gun owners are much lower than against non gun owners, but that doesn’t appear to be the case. All you get are anecdotal counts of defensive gun use which as I indicated above may have resolved exactly the same way (or better) without a gun.

I don’t know if anyone here has argued that firearms are the only way to defend against predators. I find it’s very helpful to remain mindful of my surroundings, remain sober, and avoid unnecessary confrontations all of which are my preferred methods of risk mitigation. It also helps that I don’t view a firearm as a magical device rendering invincibility.

[Nauplius]

@DrDeth

You said “pro-gun” twice, whereas clearly one of them was likely anti-gun.

which is why he corrected himself:

pro-gun control = anti gun

[UltraVires]

@Odesio

I don’t know if anyone here has argued that firearms are the only way to defend against predators. I find it’s very helpful to remain mindful of my surroundings, remain sober, and avoid unnecessary confrontations all of which are my preferred methods of risk mitigation. It also helps that I don’t view a firearm as a magical device rendering invincibility.

Gun owners do all that you mentioned and also do not view a gun as a “magical device rendering invincibility.”

I’m sure you could cite anecdotal evidence to the contrary, but we don’t ban cars because a handful of idiots in a country of 320 million people drive at 180 mph or ram other cars, nor do we ban airplanes because sometimes pilots fly drunk.

These mass shootings are statistical blips (unless you redefine mass shootings into ordinary crime) and should not be the basis of policy change, but psychological study.

ETA: On review, you may be agreeing with me, but I’m not sure.

[Mdcastle]

@Mark_Finn

Are there counts (in a recent year) available for:

1. For civilians who own a firearm strictly for self-defense - how many accidental shootings killing (or injuring) someone unintentionally? One 2014 source says 2,549 children died and 13,576 children were injured accidentally in a recent year.

2. For civilians who own a firearm strictly for self-defense - how many crimes were successfully stopped? How many stopped involving the death (or injury) of the intended victim(s)? Did any involve the death (or injury) of innocent people?

3. How many crimes did not occur because criminals know they could be shot dead if they try kicking down a door of an occupied house in order to commit a murder, rape, or home invasion?

[Inigo_Montoya]

@Mdcastle

3. How many crimes did not occur because criminals know they could be shot dead if they try kicking down a door of an occupied house in order to commit a murder, rape, or home invasion?

Probably not many if the perp is savvy enough to get some stats off the internets. Odds are slightly better than even that a household has no firearm at all (57% of us). And of those that are armed, I can’t imagine more than 20% are actually loaded and stored in such a way as to effectively neutralize an intruder under most conditions–is the thing even in the same room as where the attack is happening? is it loaded? Is the owner prepared to discharge it at a human (there’s theory, and then there’s reality). Were I to consider perpetrating violence on someone, it would be relatively easy to mitigate the threat of a firearm defense. Just get 'em at home, and when they’re not in the bedroom. If they’re carrying on their hip in their own home, then I probably should have chosen a less scary neighborhood to crime in.

[QuickSilver]

@Inigo_Montoya

Probably not many if the perp is savvy enough to get some stats off the internets. Odds are slightly better than even that a household has no firearm at all (57% of us). And of those that are armed, I can’t imagine more than 20% are actually loaded and stored in such a way as to effectively neutralize an intruder under most conditions–is the thing even in the same room as where the attack is happening? is it loaded? Is the owner prepared to discharge it at a human (there’s theory, and then there’s reality). Were I to consider perpetrating violence on someone, it would be relatively easy to mitigate the threat of a firearm defense. Just get 'em at home, and when they’re not in the bedroom. If they’re carrying on their hip in their own home, then I probably should have chosen a less scary neighborhood to crime in.

Sure, but guns do offer 100% false sense of security. Can’t beat that with the bat you keep the hall closet.

[Lamoral]

Home invaders get shot by the occupants all the time. That’s not “100% false security”, it’s security, full stop.

It’s not the ONLY way to secure a house and I’m not suggesting that everyone ought to own a gun, but it can absolutely provide security.

[DrDeth]

@Inigo_Montoya

Probably not many if the perp is savvy enough to get some stats off the internets. …

Well, professional burglars- not drugged out scum- never operate when the owner is home. They case the owners and the house, and will only hit houses they know have valuables and no one at home. One reason is fear of a armed householder, but other reasons too.