I have no idea how the NY Times or anyone could come up with a number for what the illegals are paying into SS and Medicare thru their false papers, much less “billions”, particularly since almost all of them are making low wages, but that is beside the point. That money doesn’t come back to the state to pay for the social services that the illegals use here.
:rolleyes: Yeah, nobody mowed lawns or did construction work or worked as maids before the illegals got here. Yes, I know things are desperate for them in Mexico, but they still choose to come here illegally, and to take work where they aren’t going to get paid much or have employer paid benefits. They aren’t slaves.
It has nothing to do with white or men. The vast majority of us are not exploiting the illegals in any way, but we are supporting not only them but the same cultural norms that got them in trouble in Mexico.
Exactly. If the problem we have here was because of a vast population of illegal Swedes, we’d be saying the same thing. The issue isn’t race, it’s the drain on society that illegals pose.
Well, the debate in California, and I imagine also in Arizona, New Mexico and Texas. is only about Mexicans, with a smattering of folks from even further south. We have almost zero experience with any illegals from the Caribbean, eastern Europe or Africa.
Thank you. I appreciate your taking the time to point out my misinformation and add some enlightening facts to the discussion, instead of just screaming “you’re a fuckin’ racist!”.
I don’t think newer terms are more accurate or less biased. I think they try to hide the severity of the problem by using more palatable words.
The opposition are those who espouse the idea that illegal aliens are at fault. And that by saying that the term “illegal alien” implies blaming the alien, you are implicitly accepting that idea with respect to that term.
Instead, I reject that the term “illegal alien” is derogatory or somehow faults the alien. I use the term because it directly describes the situation and the solution. Illegal aliens should be made legal.
You’re almost right. “Illegal” is not exactly the same as “criminal”, or “convict”. And while illegal aliens are often dehumanized by the conditions they are in, euphemism does nothing to correct that.
The fact that some people want to remove or oppress illegal aliens does not mean the term should not be used. It means the term should be used–confront them on the issue directly instead of using weasle terms like “undocumented immigrant”. Don’t let them control the language by preventing us from using the proper terms. Just like we didn’t let them take control of the term “patriot”.
And like in the 19th century, the “slave” was used instead of some euphemism. Despite racists using the term. The poor conditions are why we don’t use an euphemism. Don’t give the racists a minor victory by letting them tell us what “illegal alien” really means.
Another person who is talking out his ass. The word “illegals” is applied to - surprise! - those who come and stay here - wait for it - illegally. It is not applied to any random “brown” person as you want to believe. This may surprise you, but all of the “brown people” here have a bunch of rights, whatever their status. And they aren’t being oppressed fercrissakes.
Really? So a thief isn’t a thief until he gets caught?
Neither are we.
Nope, in this state you have to prove it no matter what color you are. I am lily-white as well, but the only time I didn’t have to prove as was legally in this country when getting a job was when I direct transferred within a company.
Did anyone say we don’t? No.
It is vastly different in that those of us whose ancestors came over on some boat almost all came within the law and were subject to quotas. Today, in California, the illegals flow over the border uncounted and burden our economy. Think about it - do you really want a huge population of uneducated people as citizens in your state? People blather on about how the illegals take jobs that citizens won’t take, but there really aren’t that many of those sorts of jobs to go around, especially since the economy cratered here.
I’m just not seeing how that has happened here. We know there is a serious problem and for the first time in a while there is actually some movement towards a solution (if only because the Stark Raving Mad party thinks they’ll get a bunch of Latino votes that way). The terms aren’t the problem.
But the term does carry that implication. That’s why they use it (or when that takes too long, “illegals”). The only thing they want to talk about is the legal status of these people - not what they actually do or why they are in the country or the state of the labor market. Pointing that out doesn’t cede anything to them. The people who say it’s a dehumanizing term are onto something.
The word “illegals” appears nowhere in that post. And I know you keep calling yourself an idiot, but you can’t be so fucking dumb you missed the sarcasm there.
Let me guess: you run a firm with pchaos. We’re going to have to change our slogan to “The Straight Dope: home of the stupidest fucking lawyers in the world since 1973.”
The huge wave of illegal immigrants who went back to Mexico when the economy went south in 2008 is a big red flag to me that they weren’t here to make a permanent life in our country, but just here to make money.
Yes, you are ceding the term to them. You are conflating the term with the politics of some of the people who use the term.
I’m sick of partisans claiming terminology implies political views–and both sides let the other do it. It’s bad for communication and it’s bad for politics. Instead of arguing over policy, we have people using terms as badges to denote which tribe they’re a member of, and then simply attacking everyone else as an other. Case in point, see The Second Stone.
Don’t let the opposition dehumanize illegal aliens by accepting their connotations. Use “illegal alien” as a term to describe an unfortunate condition, that can be resolved by legalizing the alien. If you let only them use the term, you’re passively accepting their use of it. I won’t do that.
So now you would have us believe that you were being sarcastic the whole time and didn’t mean it. You now ask us to grant you that you meant the exact opposite of what you wrote in black and white. Too bad you didn’t indicate that by saying so. I don’t think you were being sarcastic. Your post does use the term “illegal aliens”. My beef is with “illegal aliens” as much as it is “illegals.”
I notice that you did not take me up on the bet. As usual, you say things that you can’t back up, except by having your buddies come in and agree with you. I’ve never met “pchaos” and don’t remember any of his/her posts.
Yeah, I’m onto something when I say calling people illegals or illegal aliens is dehumanizing. Let’s be specific about the something I’m onto: I’m onto racists. And calling out the racists. You say “The terms aren’t the problem.” They are a huge part of the problem, particularly when they are not called out. They are coded messages for racists, intended by the people who insist on their use to be heard as racist messages, but not subject to the approbation of racist messages. When you say “The terms aren’t the problem” you give them cover and further their message. And deeply undermine your claim to sarcasm. The medium of forms of “illegal” is the message. The message is that they need not be given the full courtesies of others, legal, political and social. That they are somehow causing a problem.
The fact is that most Americans want immigrants here to do various jobs at many levels of many industries. And in our homes. But many also want to put them outside the protection of the law, social courtesy and dehumanize them. This has the net effect of taking unfair advantage of them and keeping all wages low.
They’re not necessarily saying that, though. They’re saying words mean things and they can connote different ideas and assumptions that shouldn’t go unquestioned. And that happens to be true.
They dehumanize them all the time. The language doesn’t cause that, it just reflects it.
And like I said, it also puts all the blame on the immigrant and pays no heed to any other factor. Whenever you call anything illegal, the implication is always “that should be stopped”- not “the law should be changed to remedy a basic unfairness.”
Really? What area of law do you practice? Are you, by any chance, a trial lawyer? If so, can I come watch your next trial? Because given your demonstrated ignorance of even the most basic of rhetorical devices, and your manifest inability to follow a line of thought from one sentence to the next, I bet it would be a real hoot to watch you up in front of a judge.
So you think I actually believe those words were handed down by god on tablets of fire (even though I’m an atheist) and that the words “illegal aliens” are written in the stars - and that I was being serious in that post and then contradicted it in a bunch of subsequent ones, like the one where I told Machine Elf his post was goofy because it’s legit to argue about what terms can be used for these people.
How does that make sense to you? I think you’re making this up as you go along. You’re having an outrage fit and you can’t admit you misunderstood something, which is odd because you must have lots of practice. In fact I think we’ve done this in the Pit before. You’re too dumb to understand sarcasm or nuance, so periodically you go on a stupidity binge and call me some kind of right-wing reactionary.
Ok, I’ll take you up on the bet. Wire me $20,000 and I’ll happily bet you $10,000.
Yes, and? Words mean whatever they’re used to mean. If it’s used in a derogatory way by enough people, it’s derogatory. The fact that it was ultimately shortened to “illegals” (like that’s the only relevant fact about these people) tells you everything you need to know about that.
I am able to question it. I’m just not impressed by what you’re suggesting. You’re arguing we should keep using a loaded term that directs all the focus to one group of people and which is really dehumanizing just because you think it makes the situation sound more serious and you assume the serious term will make people push harder to fix this situation. All of that is wrong, so I’m not going to waste my time insisting on “illegal aliens” over something else, like undocumented workers.
Well then, respectfully, you’ve made some very bad assumptions because I haven’t accused anyone on this thread of being a racist.
Nor was I engaging in a hijack, I just challenged the idea that it was wrong to think that Machine Elf clearly had Hispanics in mind when he made his OP.
Anyway, I’m going to back out of this pissing contest because I think the two of us largely agree on this thread and both of us I guess would be considered “crypto fascists” or “racists” by some since I’ve used the term “illegal immigrants” which some feel is the same as referring to “illegals”.
For the record, I personally don’t think the term “illegal immigrant” is a pejorative and had my father not been able to immigrate to the US legally, I’m sure he’d have tried to do so illegally, though he’d probably have tried France first.
I think we understand each other, but fundamentally disagree. Would you also use “unforced laborer” instead of “slave”? The situation is dehumanizing, not the term.