Things are getting better. That's what I told my daughter.

The BBQ Pit
161

[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip]
She doesn’t have to do anything, but her description of the conversation supported the conclusion (that the customer was being racist) convincingly, while the OP left some room for other possibilities, as Kalhoun felt, among others (including myself).
[/QUOTE]

But there’s always going to be room for other possibilities. (I agree with lissener when he made this particular point, although I disagree with the name-calling he’s done.) Even if the customer had been more overt with her insults, there’s still the possibility that racism wasn’t driving her behavior. But so what? That doesn’t mean it’s cool to express disagreement with someone’s perceptions without even asking for more information first.

162

[QUOTE=faithfool]
For those who came to a more concrete conclusion after reading Biggirl’s second post clarifying the situation… why? What made it more evident than her opening volley? Because I’m not seeing what the difference is that is SO clear the last go around that wasn’t the first.
[/quote]

I think this…

…did it for me. Even if it wasn’t meant to be racist (I’m fairly convinced that it was), it was awfully damned personal on some level.

I’m a white guy with a baritone voice, a csr/dispatcher for a utility/cable company. When my phone rings, there’s a 90% chance that the person on the other end is Not A Happy Camper; there’s also about the same chance that they’ll be more apt to say shit on the phone that they wouldn’t say face-to-face. (Ain’t technology great?) I can’t even begin to count the times I’ve heard “You people were at my house yesterday…”, at which point I interject in my best Eddie Murphy-in-Texas imitation, “Excuse me? Who ‘people’ would that be?”

“Uhhh…you know…the cable guy…”
“I see. And what can I do for you?”

Now, I understand that this is not textbook customer service, and I don’t advise it unless you’re the eccentric old codger who works the grueling weekend shift that no one else wants. But that’s me, and I’ve had it up to my eyeballs with self-important peckerheads. I’ll be damned if I’m going to smile and make nice with people if they insist on talking to me in the same tone of voice that they use to talk to their dogs. Direct confrontation right off the bat helps me to establish whether we’re going to speak to each other like respectable adults, or I’m going to hang up. There is no third option.

It absolutely disgusts me that so many companies are willing to sell the self-esteem of their employees for such a paltry price, all in the name of ‘customer service’. It’s even more disgusting that such entitlement-minded customers seem to think that their money can buy it.

Biggirl, my best to your daughter, and you. And remember that things are getting better, in spite of the assholes who apparently didn’t get The Message. Take some comfort in the knowledge that they can’t live forever, and their children probably think they’re assholes, too. As an example, I offer … my own family. My grandfather was a stone racist. No denying it. It was such an embarassment to my father that he had to work hard to disassociate himself from it, and to help me understand the wrongfulness of it (for reference, I was born in '62). In my house, to my children (ages 7 and 5), racism is a thing unknown. Hope with me, that it will remain that way.

163

[QUOTE=TroubleAgain]
This is my issue with all the replies that said, in essence “maybe it wasn’t racism”. If the target of a veiled insult, who was there, saw the face, heard the voice, experienced the “vibes” recognizes it as racism, it WAS. Period. No over-sensitivity involved, no need to offer other interpretations.
[/QUOTE]

Well, except—and I’m honestly not just trying to be argumentative, here—I’m not so sure that’s always the case.

This is coming from my perspective as a white person who, over the years, has sometimes been the target of accusations of racism, in cases where I sincerely believe there was none, nor any cause for the accuser to think so. It’s also happened to my friends and family members. I could provide anecdotes if necessary, but generally speaking it might be a co-worker or stranger who, faced with not getting their way on something, would quickly say “oh, I get it. You’re racist against black people! I see!” A customer who was unhappy with the price of his food, maybe, or an employee of my mother’s who, faced with firing for chronic tardiness and unexcused absences, responded by filing a racial discrimination lawsuit.

Now whether they honestly thought they were on the receiving end of racism, or just felt that lobbing the “racist!” grenade into the mix was a suitable tactic to get what they wanted, I can’t say for sure. (Some may feel that “where there’s smoke there’s fire,” so if someone called me or one of my familars a racist, it must be true; all I can do is insist it wasn’t the case.)

I agree that in principle, the person perceiving the racism ought to be taken at his or her word, and I can understand why doubt being raised could be upsetting. But based on my personal experience, I’m not prepared to affirm in every case that the mere fact of uttering “racism” makes it unquestionably so.

(If I didn’t already make it fully clear, I do not think the description above applies to Biggirl’s daughter in any way. The customer was a rude asshole who, it seems, was probably enjoying getting away with the saying-it-but-not-quite-saying-it racial slurs.)

164

[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF]
For my part, I will unarguably take someone’s word for it, mindful of the fact that a) I was asked for a cite in this very thread and b) nobody ever takes my word for it. I will accordingly expect that same courtesy in the future.
[/QUOTE]
Boo fucking Hoo Hoo. You were asked to provide a cite that –

most of us have at one time or another held a job like this, have been the targets of customer vitriol, and have undoubtedly been referred to by the epithet “you people”,

So I am supposed to take your word for it? You know my life? Monstro’s? Kalhoun’s Any fucking body in this thread?

You pulled it out of your ass and were called on it. Grow the fuck up.

165

[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip]
Well, except—and I’m honestly not just trying to be argumentative, here—I’m not so sure that’s always the case.

This is coming from my perspective as a white person who, over the years, has sometimes been the target of accusations of racism, in cases where I sincerely believe there was none, nor any cause for the accuser to think so. It’s also happened to my friends and family members. I could provide anecdotes if necessary, but generally speaking it might be a co-worker or stranger who, faced with not getting their way on something, would quickly say “oh, I get it. You’re racist against black people! I see!” A customer who was unhappy with the price of his food, maybe, or an employee of my mother’s who, faced with firing for chronic tardiness and unexcused absences, responded by filing a racial discrimination lawsuit.

Now whether they honestly thought they were on the receiving end of racism, or just felt that lobbing the “racist!” grenade into the mix was a suitable tactic to get what they wanted, I can’t say for sure. (Some may feel that “where there’s smoke there’s fire,” so if someone called me or one of my familars a racist, it must be true; all I can do is insist it wasn’t the case.)

I agree that in principle, the person perceiving the racism ought to be taken at his or her word, and I can understand why doubt being raised could be upsetting. But based on my personal experience, I’m not prepared to affirm in every case that the mere fact of uttering “racism” makes it unquestionably so.

(If I didn’t already make it fully clear, I do not think the description above applies to Biggirl’s daughter in any way. The customer was a rude asshole who, it seems, was probably enjoying getting away with the saying-it-but-not-quite-saying-it racial slurs.)
[/QUOTE]

In which case, if you’ve been misunderstood, the response is to say “oh, my God! I’m so sorry. I didn’t mean that the way you understood it. Please accept my apology.”

(And the proper response is “No, I’m sorry, I misunderstood you. Accept my apology for assuming racism.”)

I actually think that may be part of the problem here - the realization of some people that “you people” said to a minority is OFTEN interpreted by that minority as a racist slam and that many of us white people know its a coded slam to black people EVEN IF YOU DIDN’T INTEND IT THAT WAY. So they are not really making excuses for the bitch who made biggirl’s daughter cry, they are making excuses for their own behavior. When the appropriate thing to probably do is say “oh, I never realized that had a coded racist message. I hope I’ve never said that to a black person, because I use that all the time.”

166

[QUOTE=you with the face]
Correct spelling is sistah.
[/QUOTE]

Forgot to add a smiley to this to show that I’m not being serious.

:slight_smile:

167

[QUOTE=Dangerosa]
I actually think that may be part of the problem here - the realization of some people that “you people” said to a minority is OFTEN interpreted by that minority as a racist slam.
[/quote]

This part would include me. I knew it could be used that way, but never would have thought it would be taken as racist most of the time.

Again, I knew it could be but wouldn’t assume it was racist in nature without other reason to believe so.

I’m not making any excuses, because I can’t think of a time I’ve used it myself. My experience is that phrase being used on me. I haven’t seen anyone make excuses for the customers behaviour, everything in this thread that I’ve read has been unanimous in saying the customer was an insane bitch who needs smacked down. The disagreement has been in possible interpretations of what group she meant by ‘you people’.

Its all just semantics in my opinion, because at the end of the day what matters is that this person was rude to the OP’s daughter. And from what Biggirl described of the conversation, her daughter showed a lot of class and was exceedingly polite and professional throughout the bitch customers tirade. For that she should be proud.

168

[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]
Boo fucking Hoo Hoo. You were asked to provide a cite that –

most of us have at one time or another held a job like this, have been the targets of customer vitriol, and have undoubtedly been referred to by the epithet “you people”,
[/quote]

Have you ever held a menial job? If so, I want to know where so that I can get a job that’s all flowers and candy where everyone is nice to you. As for cites, how about pages upon pages of them? May I direct you to Customers Suck, or is that not quite good enough for you?

Absolutely, because if I should, without any sort of critical thinking, assume the worst based upon somebody’s word, I think that I should be extended that same courtesy.

Something about pots and kettles comes to mind. I’m sure you’ve heard it before.

169

Well, maybe this says something about me, but…

Without even being sure, as I began to read the OP, that **Biggirl ** is black (I have, heretofore, not been familiar enough with her posts to get an idea), and without even getting through her entire post, I *definitely * got that “YOU people” referred to black folks. Then again, I’m a black guy who has to suffer all manner of racist indignities by white Americans every…fucking…day (though usually not on the level of someone actually *vocalizing * “YOU people”), so I reckon that I’d be more attuned to that kind of thing than some of the non-“YOU people” Dopers are. (Yeah, even though some here might want me to believe that I’m crazy, and that what I’m actually “seeing” is merely a result of observer expectancy blah-blah-blah, etc., etc.) Now, don’t get mad at me yet, 'cause…

…Not, mind you, that I think that *all * of you who didn’t get the racist vibe behind the remarks are being maliciously-or-whatever obtuse or anything like that. I guess it’s just that, as Caridwen, Contrapuntal, Noone Special, and others have pointed out or alluded to, racist intent really can be that obvious, even if it’s not always **THAT ** obvious, y’know?

And, Silenus, thanks so much for offering the use of your baseball bat, but thanks to YOU people like Biggirl, my mama, my grandparents, and the many folks on whose shoulders that many of us “YOU people” stand, many of us wouldn’t dream of taking it that far. Well, okay, we might *dream * about it, but we’d never actually *do * it. :wink: If it weren’t for folks like this…Laaawd, ha’mercy, who knows **what ** I’d do whenever I find myself in these kinds of situations?!

That’s just my $0.02 for now. I’ve read through only a few posts so far, but it’ll be interesting to see if you with the face, monstro, and Hippy Hollow (among others) check in since they tend to have such interesting things to say about this kind of stuff. (Oh, and on preview, it appears that they *have * checked in.)

And, Biggirl? Tell your daughter to keep her chin up. Despite shit like this, we’ve **always ** managed to survive and hold fast to our dignity, and so will she.

170

I’m a middle-aged white guy, but I grew up in Tulsa, and I know **exactly ** what “you people” means and it ain’t pretty.

I think it’s pretty crappy to come into a thread like this and nit-pick the OP, trying to come up with some convoluted explanation that lets the bigot off the hook. It was obvious to Biggirl’s daughter that it was a racist remark. Quibbling with her interpretation is just adding insult to injury: “Oh you blacks are so sensitive! You think every white person is a racist! She probably just meant you **young ** people … or you **clerk ** people! Don’t be so sensitive!”

Quit being patronizing. You weren’t there. She was. End of story.

Good thoughts to your daughter, Biggirl. I’m a daddy and if someone hurt my girl like that I’d be spitting bullets … .

171

*Diane: Hi, I’m Diane Simmons, and I’m going to be playing the part of Anna. Which role will you be playing?

Loretta: I was gonna be Anna, until you came along… :mad:

Diane: That’s just great! You know, they did an all - YOU PEOPLE version of “Hello Dolly” that was very well-received!*

It just floors me that there are Dopers who don’t have that exchange burned into their brains.

172

I have to agree with Li’l Puck here that I knew it was a racist remark before Biggirl mentioned it.

I can’t really think of any use of the phrase “you people”, when directed at an individual rather than an actual group of people, that isn’t meant to be insulting at best and bigotted at worst.

Why not address a person directly? Why not replace “you people” with simply you? Because then it would be a direct insult? I say, if you’re going to insult someone go ahead and do it. Why beat around the bush with the “you people” thing. Let’s try it out:

*Customer: Of course YOU would wear a piece of crap like that.

Customer: Of course I want one receipt, I don’t know how it is YOU shop but I don’t walk around with thousands of receipts.

Customer: I don’t even know why they let YOU behind a cash register! YOU may like to give gifts as classless as that but I would never do such a thing. Just take everything back!*

See, the customer got to be a bitch and insult the girl without insulting a whole group (whatever that group may be) of people. To me, it’s a lot easier to take and there’s no confusion. If you think the sales clerk is a snot nosed little bitch just tell her so. “You people” is just so, I don’t know, passive agressive maybe?

173

I am so white that I honestly “think that this song is about me”- and in this cae, the song is “White and Nerdy” by Weird Al. :smiley:

But I still get “you peopled”. Directed at my position "*You people * don’t care about the hard working small businessmen just trying to make an honest buck’. All the fucking time. And by whites, blacks, asians, latinos, the whole rainbow. If a white middle aged dude is saying “You people” to me- a fellow white middled aged dude- then he ain’t being racist. Thus, “you people” can be racist or not.

I do believe the OP’s daughter heard it as racist. But we don’t have a video clip, and although I don’t doubt her truthfullness, I do doubt her memory. I deal with “witness testimony” all the time, and even fresh eyewitness testimony is basicly crap. The mind remembers things as *it * wants to, and filters said memories. It is quite possible that the customer didn’t emphasise "you people’ anywhere near that much, but BG’s daughter heard it or remembered it that way. That’s not to doubt her veracity, few actually have an eiditic memory and even they can be wrong. I know Mom’s tend to idolize their daughters, but saying that her daughter can remember a convessation that long, word for exact word, and even get the intonations exactly right is just too much.

Of course, the Manager could have asked the customer what she meant by “you people”- if the customer had replied “you know- niggers”, then I think we’d all know.

Certainly it could have been racist. But without knowing what *the customer * meant as "you people’ and without a video transcript, we just don’t know it was. Sorry.

174

As someone who has been a retail peon for nearly all of her life, I have NEVER been called “YOU people” by anyone. (Yep, white as a ghost.) No “YOU bookstore clerks” or “YOU who run the register” or “YOU dishwashers” or “YOU waitresses” or “YOU baristas.” Every time I have heard someone speaking to “YOU people” or speaking about “THOSE people”, it’s been because of their race, religion, or sexual preference, and not their job. Maybe it’s been downgraded to an equal-opportunity insult in some parts of the country, but as far as I’m concerned, it’s still a racist thing to say.

Biggirl, I hope that manager kicked that customer up one side of the store and down the other. Had I been there, she would have gotten a piece of my mind.

175

[QUOTE=DrDeth]
I do believe the OP’s daughter heard it as racist. But we don’t have a video clip, and although I don’t doubt her truthfullness, I do doubt her memory. I deal with “witness testimony” all the time, and even fresh eyewitness testimony is basicly crap. The mind remembers things as *it * wants to, and filters said memories.
[/QUOTE]

And sometimes the mind makes up things. Let’s also not forget the possibility that Biggirl’s daughter had a hallucination, or just dreamed up the whole incident after a late-night snack (mushrooms maybe…certainly possible). I mean, while we sitting here speculating we might as well consider these scenarios, too. We’re all just assuming that Biggirl junior is a credible witness to her own encounter with this jerk, but none of know that for sure. How silly we’ve all been.

Good point, I don’t know why you’re the first person to point out this possibility. I mean, maybe the lady didn’t even say “you people”. Maybe she had something caught in her throat and was trying to cough it up, and the sound came out like “you people”. That sometimes happen with some other words cough cough BULLSHIT so I don’t know why that can’t be what’s going on here.

176

[QUOTE=you with the face]
And sometimes the mind makes up things. Let’s also not forget the possibility that Biggirl’s daughter had a hallucination, or just dreamed up the whole incident after a late-night snack (mushrooms maybe…certainly possible). I mean, while we sitting here speculating we might as well consider these scenarios, too. We’re all just assuming that Biggirl junior is a credible witness to her own encounter with this jerk, but none of know that for sure. How silly we’ve all been.
[/QUOTE]

*Well, and as we all know, THOSE people always smoke crack. Obviously Biggirl’s daughter was wacked out on crack and had no idea what the woman was saying.

*This is obvioulsy sarcasm, for the humour impaired.

177

This thread is so sad. Or more accurately, I am saddened by this thread.

I have been called YOU PEOPLE–I am white-and I’ve been called that by African-Americans. I never took it as racist because I figured they were just upset about their loved one’s condition and their care etc (I work in a hospital), so I took YP to mean–the health care team.

Nice to know (sarcasm for the impaired) that it has that connotation–or doesn’t reverse racism have any credibility? What has been said (to me) is things like, “you people don’t get it, do you?” and “you people aren’t treating Aunt Sadie right.” I didn’t take this as racist because I am one of two white nurses in my unit-I work with African-Americans and Africans. Now, if they had singled me and Casper out… Again, it never occurred to me to take it as racist, but perhaps I will call the next upset family member on it. See what happens (if I dont’ lose my job by doing so…). I have used the term “you people” --to my auto mechanic (“do you people know what you’re doing?” when they so clearly didn’t is one example). Would I use it in a conversation with a minority? NO-if I did, I would make sure I referenced the job category, not the gender, race or ethnicity because my issue isn’t with those, it’s with whatever job hadn’t been done.

It seems to me that this thread is about two things: one is the fact that some of us can and do suffer outrageous insults on a (seemingly) daily basis. The other is that rude behavior is (seemingly) on the increase. Both of those are enough to upset any thinking, civil person, I would hope.

I don’t see this as (sorry for this pun) a black and white issue. I can see where Kalhoun could question if the diatribe were racially motivated at first. Upon more info, (and as she has said herself)–it was absolutely motivated by that, and disgusting it is, too. What I don’t understand is all the calls of this one is now some kind of closet racist or that one is naive (which read to me as stupid, live in a bubble and entitled, but that might just be me. However, Dopers seem to pride themselves on their knowledge and open-mindedness, to be called “naive” is not a Nice Thing here–no, it doesn’t equate to being called a racist or being on the receiving end of racial slurs, but I can see how it be would be inflammatory).

I think I am suffering (seems an extreme word, but can’t think of another one offhand) from some kind of racial fatigue. For every Angry Black Person out there who is sick and tired of being treated like shit (and no one should be), there is someone like me, who is sick and tired of being verbally beaten up for shit I don’t pull(and no one should be). I don’t shoot strange black men suspicious glances on the train or fill in the blank. I try to go about my day with as little controversy as possible. I doubt I’m alone.

As for the snarky remark re “we’ve come real far” from biggirl -that, to me, just takes this up a notch. In no way am I saying that laurels should be rested on, but I am saying that to not acknowledge that strides have been made is specious and inflammatory. I realize it was made in angry–but like so much of this thread, with defenses so high–it doesn’t help with understanding. To be fair, Kalhoun shouldn’t have said the “what the fucking ever” bit.

I can’t finish and polish this-I have to take my son somewhere. sorry

178

[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF]
Have you ever held a menial job?
[/QUOTE]
Several, in fact. Did you not read my initial response to you?

Non sequitor, old bean. Never said it was all flowers and candy. I said I was never referred to as “you people,” which you claimed was endemic around here. Baselessly, I might add.

Searching for “you people” on that site, I found nothing. Keep your eye on the ball, Doors. Or were you under the impression that I was claiming that customers are not asses? If so, disabuse yourself. If you don’t mind interrupting your self-abuse session, that is.

I’m not really sure what this means. Assume away. Just back off of the unwarrented claims.

Not really. Were you thinking of Get Your Biscuits in the Oven and Your Buns in the Bed? I’m pretty sure I’m not your type.

179

[QUOTE=Brainiac4And **Random **-- your reply to **lissener **was a masterwork.[/QUOTE]

Thanks. What can I say? Being called a dishonest racist is a powerful motivator.

180

I’m white as white can get, and I’ve heard and read the term “you/those people” used to refer to various minorities (gays, blacks, Jews, etc) quite a bit. It’s obvious that said person is trying to play the whole, “I’m not a racist BUT…” game.

And no, when I worked retail, I was never called “you people”.