Things you think you know, but you do not

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
81

So on the one hand:

Cleopatra was 100% Greek by descent. Further she was literally the only member of her dynasty to learn how to speak Egyptian. Every other single one of her predecessors never bothered, they spoke Koine Greek, which was also Cleopatra’s first language. The Ptolemies did NOT marry non-Greeks like Persians or Egyptians - they married other Greeks who happened to be ruling in places like Persia. This was the Hellenistic age. Every ruling dynasty between Albania and the Indus was ethnically and linguistically Greek. Ethnicity-wise they were as Greek as Greek can be. Also fairly inbred by Cleopatra’s time.

In certain respects the Ptolemies also functioned as an extractive alien class. The capital was largely Greek and existed as an island in a native Egyptian sea. The military, other than a brief experiment under Ptolemy IV, consisted overwhelmingly of Greek mercenaries with zero native troops. As noted the ruling class with that one very late exception did not bother learning the language of their subjects. They were like a much more stubborn version of the early Norman French in England in that respect.

On the other hand:
The Ptolemies extensively adopted pharaonic pageantry and religious imagery. The sibling marriage thing with its associated dynastic cult was thoroughly Egyptian in conception - Macedonians thought that kind of stuff was gross. The ‘living God’ thing likewise, very un-Macedonian. They patronized and funded the native priesthood and temples as a means of social control with a fair degree of success. Egyptian art was patronized alongside Greek and as time went on you started seeing elements of both in common design.

If Cleopatra VII (the famous one) went pretty Egyptian in imagery (not entirely though - Greek elements were still retained), she was just following a well-worn template of religious and artistic syncretism established by her forbears.

So if people say Cleopatra was Greek, I’d say I more or less agree. If they say she’s Egyptian, I’d say sorta, but not entirely. The late Ptolemies were pretty syncretic, but they were also very, very aware and proud of their distinctive origins as Greek-speaking conquerors. I’d call her more Hellenistic than anything, which to me implies a Greek-inflected and politically dominated cosmopolitan culture.

82

You mean these guys?

The jokes just write themselves.

83

No, the Royal family brought in some wifes from outside the Macedonian line.

And so? Educated Romans usually spoke Greek. Alexandria was so cosmopolitan Greek was the language of trade.

If a family came from Ireland into America in the early 1800s, and the family most married into other Irish families- now here in 2024- do they have American passports and Citizenship or Irish? Sure, they might celebrate St Paddys day and consider themselves irish-American, but they are American.

84

Mostly Greek wives. There is only one verified partial exception I found, but I guess I’ll have to concede it was less than 100% :slight_smile:. There are also some unknowns towards the end. But it is not much less than 100%.

Ptolemy I - eventual line of descent went through his second (or possibly third) wife Berenice. Macedonian.

Ptolemy II - line descended through his first wife Arsinoe (I, his second wife was his sister Arsinoe II), daughter of Lysimachus. Macedonian.

Ptolemy III - line descended through another Berenice, queen of Cyrenaica in her own right. This one was descended from a half-brother of Ptolemy II through his mother Berenice’s first marriage (to a Macedonian), Magas, and Apama, an entirely Greek Seleucid.

Ptolemy IV - line descended through his full sister, another Arsinoe.

Ptolemy V - line descended through the first Cleopatra. Cleopatra I was 1/4 Persian, a granddaughter of Mithridates II of Pontus a Persian who took a Macedonian wife. Her father was the 100% Greek Seleucid Antiochus III.

Ptolemy VI - line descended through his full sister Cleopatra II. Then shit starts getting really complicated.

Ptolemy VII - dubious son of the above or possibly Cleo II and Ptolemy VIII. Probably never reigned at all. No descendants.

Ptolemy VIII younger brother of Ptolemy VI, also married their sister Cleo II. But line descended through his niece Cleo III, daughter of Ptolemy VI and Cleo II (the incest builds like a tide).

Ptolemy IX - legitimate line descends through his sister Cleo IV.

Ptolemy X - brother of the above, line might descends through his niece Berenice, daughter of Cleo IV and Ptolemy IX. Or more likely it descend through Cleopatra Selene, daughter Ptolemy VIII and Cleo III.

Ptolemy XI - no descendants, appears to have been married to the the immediately preceding Berenice above (probably step-mother instead of mother).

Ptolemy XII - illegitimate son of Ptolemy IX, mother unknown. Egyptian? Pretty unlikely, but I guess not utterly impossible. Married a likely sister or cousin in Cleo V, who is obscure but probably a daughter of Ptolemy IX or X (more likely X). Through these two almost certainly comes Cleo VII. Leaving off the various other intervening Ptolemys and another Berenice, as the aren’t directly relevant to Cleo VII.

So Cleopatra VII had a tiny bit of Persian in the woodpile via the royal house of Pontus. It is also remotely possible there was some other background through her unknown grandmother, but given the social milieu back then it is highly unlikely. Like I said the Ptolemies lived in a Greek island (Alexandria) and spoke only Greek. Any mistress is extremely likely to have been largely or entirely Greek.

It means they sure didn’t assimilate into Egypt in that sense. The early Normans spoke no English and did not consider themselves English. By the time English particularism was taking hold in the kingdom of England, those nobles were speaking English as their first or second language.

Honestly, kind of a stretch as an analogy IMHO. The Ptolemies were self-consciously Greek, but adopted a lot of Egyptian trappings. I’m not sure what you’d want to call them, but ‘Hellenistic kingdom of Ptolemaic Egypt’ is about as close as we’re going to get.

85

The wings were a countermeasure against mounted steppe warriors adopting their herdsmen practice of lassoing (with a rope loop on a long pole) enemies in battle.

86

I’d love to see a monty python take of war logistics in the 14th century …

why are you riding with a harp strapped to your back … it is NOT a harp

87

Cite?

88

(Zdzisław Żygulski (art historian) - Wikipedia)
in “Winged Hussars of Poland” published in Arms and Armour Annual I, 1973, sparked international interest in the Polish-Lithuanian hussars.

89

No. I mean, he literally wrote the exact opposite :

Their function and meaning are still not thoroughly ex­plained. It has been suggested that in battle the rustle of these wings frightened the enemy’s horses—but surely the rustle of even a thousand must have been lost in the terrible cacophony of war. An attempt has been made to interpret the wings as pro­tection against the lassos used by oriental horsemen, especially by the Tartars, but reflection and simple sense rule this thesis out, too In fact, the function of the wings was surely and solely the creation of a powerful psychological impact…

90

You are right and I was wrong @MrDibble

91

Hyenas are more closely related to cats than to dogs. Their looks and some of their behaviors might make you think of canines (suborder Caniformia), but in reality, they belong to the suborder Feliformia. This group includes cats, mongooses, and civets, making hyenas more of a distant cousin to your cat than to your dog. So, while they may seem dog-like at first glance, hyenas are more feline in their family tree.

92

Very gracious, that’s good 'Doping!

93

Ring Around the Rosies etc is NOT about the Great Plague. Firswt of all, it only dates to the 19th century.

Also the earliest version dont bring up the things that people say are ‘clearlY’ about the Plague-
Ring-a-ring-a-roses,
A pocket full of posies;
Hush! hush! hush! hush!
We’re all tumbled down

And the plague myth didnt come around until the middle of the 20th century.

So, just like Oz being about Free Silver- it is just a urban legend that sounds good.

94

Hmmm. It turns out that The Black Forest isn’t deep in the heart of Germany - it’s very nearly in France. According to google maps, at the closest point, it’s less than 2 miles from the border.

j

95

Although if you are speaking of the speed of sound in air it is only affected by temperature.

96

JOKE: Several cowboys are bragging about the bust size of their women. One says, my wife is a “38 D”. “Shoot”, responded another, “My gal is a 44 DD”." I got you all beat" replied Fred, “Mine’s a 8 and a quarter”. One cowpoke asked, “How in the hell did you measure that?” Fred relies, “With a Stetson”

97

I was shocked to find out a couple of years ago that the Earth’s north magnetic pole and south magnetic pole are not antipodal.

98

In the 1970s, when China’s Zhou Enlai was asked what he thought of the French Revolution, he is widely quoted to have remarked, “It’s too early to say.” Historians and political scientists thought that was very deep.
Turns out Zhou wasn’t talking about 1789. He was talking about the 1968 riots in Paris!

99

Here’s something a bit more mundane. Mrs. Nott asked my opinion on hanging a group of pictures above the toilet. She said she planned to hang a group of bathroom-related patent drawings about an inch apart. I stood in front of the toilet, and I showed her the spot on the wall where I put a hand while peeing. She said that had never occurred to her, because, well, she’s not a man.

Until then, I didn’t know women didn’t know that.

100

:thinking: Is that actually something common?