In a lot of Hollywood movies, ancient Egyptians are portrayed as White. Also, some White racialist websites claim that the ancient Egyptians were White.
However, in some Black music videos, the ancient Egyptians are portrayed by Blacks. And I’ve also heard that some Black historians make the claim that the ancient Egyptians were Black.
Or could they have been Semitic looking, with regular middle Eastern type features?
I’m pretty sure that the ancient Egyptians look very much like modern day Egyptians.
‘Race’ was not such a great issue in those times, and so is often not fully recorded as it was not noticed in the way that we would. It is a bit like a civilization in 5000AD who divide people by, say, eye color, trying to decide whether a group of Europeans were blu-eyes or brown-eyes- the information wopuld not be available.
It is fairly clear that they were not ‘white’. The liklihood is that some were light skinned (berber like) people, some were olive skinned semitic people and others were dark skinned East Africans, with all possible interpolations.
I like to think of Cleopatra as black,- as I like to think of God as female- as a reminder not to be a euro-centered male in outlook .
Ah a race question. I think I’ll need a cup of coffee before this is over.
Advice one: get not your ideas from white supremacist websites. It speaks very, very poorly of you.
Advice two: Depend not on Hollywood for accuracy in history, above all old Hollywood movies from the good old days when people just knew everyone of importance was ‘white’.
Advice three: Same goes for music videos, although that would seem to go without saying.
In regards to the historical question, there is a body of “afrocentrist” --which is anything but-- literature that makes a number of poorly supported claims about Africa, including Egypt. Bernal comes to mind. As to the question of their race, well that all depends on what one means in the end. See below.
There are no “semitic” features nor regular Middle Eastern features as anyone, such as myself, who has spent any significant time there. Semitic is a linguistic reference. Olive skinned Med look ain’t ‘semitic’ or any other linguistic label.
As to the facts. Ancient Egyptians were no one ‘race’ – the Nile Valley is a natural highway for population movement and as far as the record shows, shaded from one physical type to another as one goes south. Unsurprising that, when one drops the ideology. Of course, add in out-of-Valley immigration – the Hyksos, the Greeks, the Romans, the Lybican tribes from the West…
Certainly Northern (Lower Egypt) Egyptians reflected a sort of Mediterranean Basin physical type but were likely to have been fairly swarthy by modern Northern European standards. Upper (Southern) Egyptians got darker as they blended in the Nubians, who are quite dark skinned --black African shall we say?-- although distinguishable from folks even farther south.
The Nubians as you recall provided several dynasties for Egypt and had long, long relations with the Pharoanic regimes, serving in their armies, etc. Up river Nubians became quite Egyptianized (and I am sure there were reverse influences, but that is lost in history.)
Actual Egyptian art is a bit deceptive insofar as it followed highly rigid rules and forms such that with a few exceptions one can’t count on it fully accurately representing physical type.
Finally, my own opinion, having lived in Egypt and despite my general disregard for ancient Egypt, having seen most if not all the sites.
(a) Art from the naturalistic periods certainly reflect a variety of physical types, running form Med basinish to something rather more ‘African.’ Certainly not Northern Euro.
(b) Current physical type distribution is likely to be a rough approximation of 7 k bp, with perhaps the exception of the Delta (North) where there really has been a lot of immigration. Still reflects a gradual shading as one travels south.
There, I really hope this suffices.
PS: Pjen, Cleopatra was a Ptolemaic GREEK. While her Ptolemaic line may have picked up some Egyptian color, her descent was almost entirely, if the record is correct, Ptolemaic. Not black by a long shot.
As Cleopatra was ethnically Greek, she is unlikely to have been black.
On the broader population, however, it strikes me that evidence on this question must exist. Because of the widespread practice of mummifying the dead, there are abundant physical remains of ancient egyptians. Genetic and other testing could be done, and presumably has been.
A google search yields this site http://www.geocities.com/enbp/genetics.html which is admittedly polemical in nature, but it does mention two studies, giving a formal cite for one, which are said to suggest that the ancient Egyptian population was probably similar to the modern population.
As I feared, Collounsbury and others have beat me to the punch. However, having spent some time composing this I will edit it a bit and submit.
As has been pointed out, modern research has demonstrated that the classification of human populations into “black” and “white” (and other traditional races) is artificial and arbitrary. There is no scientific basis for the traditional races, hence the question in the OP is meaningless as stated. There have been many threads on this topic in GQ, GD. and the Pit, which provide ample documentation in the form of cites and links.
This said, I will try to respond to the question you should have asked: Did the human populations of ancient Egypt more closely resemble those of Europe (traditionally classifed as white or Causcasion); sub-Saharan African populations (traditionally classified as black or Negroid); or closer to the present populations of the Middle East (traditionally classified as a subgroup of Caucasian).
A quck check for documentation (which I have not yet had a chance to review in detail) indicates that DNA analysis shows (1) that the ancient population of the area was fairly similar to the modern one; and (2) the modern population is closer to those of Middle East and Southern Europe than it is to those of sub-Saharan Africa.
Based on paintings and sculpture, and on contemporary accounts, the ancient Egyptians most closely resembled the modern populations the area, having a medium brown skin tone, dark eyes, and dark, straight or wavy hair.
However, at least one ruling dynasty - the Kushites - originated to the south and seem to have resembled sub-Saharan Africans in there physical appearance. Also, slaves were imported into Egypt from the south, no doubt resulting in an admixture of sub-Saharan genotypes and physical characteristics.
It is very popular for racialists and racists, both black and white, to claim the ancient Egyptians as their own because of their achievements. This is of course nonsense. The ancient Egyptians were neither black nor white, and their accomplishments say nothing whatever about the superiority of any “race.”
As others have mentioned, one Egyptian who was most definitely not “black” was Cleopatra. She was descended from Ptolemy, one of Alexander the Great’s generals, and of Greek heritage - and from a highly inbred line, to boot, due to the dynasty’s prediliction for brother-sister marriages.
Thanks for the information about Cleopatra.
I’m surprised by the fact that no-one has pointed out that God is male.
‘I like to think…’ does not equal ‘I believe that…’
I was joking 
We don’t know what ‘race’ people were if it was not recorded. Being ‘Greek’ does not necessarily mean that she was white- many of Greek background were quite possibly Nubian in origin- some even suggest that Socrates may have been Nubian in facial features. People did have boats.:eek:
I just like to ‘think’ it- usually out loud, when surrounded by potential racists and euro-centrists.
The same way, I like to think out loud that God is female- sure upsets the sexists.
Rather.
Context. Jokes also should have a touch of humour to them, if only for the novelty value.
Rubbish, utter and complete rot.
(a) We can play what ‘race’ are the Greeks to no end, point of fact by ordinary modern standards Greeks typically fall into the ‘White’ bowl. In anycase, they clearly fall into the Med Basin look bowl, regardless of what label one puts on it.
(b) Some morons do suggest Socrates was Nubian. Some morons suggest that Aliens built the pyramids. I could care less what idiots and morons suggest.
(c) Nubians were not well-known as ocean-farers, coming from the interior as they did, and while I am sure that there were Ethiopians and Nubians and others who made their way to Greece, and elsewhere in the Basin due to commerce, the fact remains the Greek type and greeks in general did not have extensive contact with the same during this time period.
(d) the Ptolemies were Macedonians. Look that up and reflect.
Well, I like to correct factual errors, above all ones that cause ignorance to spread. Now disliking racism myself, I don’t find it necessary to fight it through an alternate form of ignorance. I would hope you might adopt the same.
You can achieve the same effect and with actual better factual connection via Nefertiti.
God is not a factual question so it’s not bloody comparable, now is it?
It’s called a debating point.
I refer you to this page:
which reflects my feeling in the quote:
“And yet it has sometimes seemed to me that what really explains the fervor of some of the Afrocentrist preoccupation with Egypt is an unexpressed belief that deep continuities supervene on skin color. Beyond the heartfelt claim that Cleopatra was ‘black’ is the lurking conviction that if you traveled back in time and dropped the needle on a James Brown album. Cleo would instantly break out into the camel walk. The belief that we cherish is not so much a proposition about melanin and physiognomy: it’s the proposition that, through the mists of history, Cleopatra was a sister.”
Sometimes you need to shock people to make them realize that Cleopatra did not have violet eyes and was not a Liz Taylor lookalike.
Similarly, suggesting that Christ was semitic in features and unlike the conventional representations in Western Art concentrates the mind on the unconscious anglo-centrism of our cultures.
Thinking of Cleopatra as dark skinned, of Christ as a Jew and God as a woman is a reminder that we may claim to ‘know’ things that are merely unconscious belief.
Wisdom does not consist of an accumulation of facts, but the ability to process information in a valid and beneficial way, including considering posssible counterfactuals. ‘Thinking’ of Cleopatra as black, or of God as female, or of Christ as a Jew allows a break in conventional thinking patterns- and this may lead to wisdom.
However much we try, we will never ‘know’ that Cleopatra was white, olive or dark skinned as the information does not exist from a culture that did not particularly care about melanin, but more about culture and ethnicity. The same is true of the Roman Empire, where ‘Romanness’ was important, not skin color. It was hardly an issue what color one was, only one’s binding to a clan. Adoption was common and crossed racial barriers, and a dark skinned adopted son was seen as as muc a son as one who shared the same genetics- social order out-played skin color.
Debates are for another forum, now aren’t they?
We’re here for facts, not cheap philosophizing.
(However, the assertion that skin color didn’t matter is not correct from the record either, certainly physical differences were the basis of discrimination, just not “race.” Further, of course, we can through genetic testing, arrive at certain conclusions about Ptolemies, so this is not a case of ‘never knowing.’ On all factual grounds, your point fails.)
There’s a REASON the Middle East is often called “the crossroads of the world.” It’s right where Europe, Asia and Africa connect, and it’s an area that’s been settled, populated, invaded and conquered time and again, by various peoples of almost every possible skin color.
Egypt was no exception. And just as modern Egypt has both fair-skinned and dark brown people (everything from Omar Sharif to Anwar Sadat), I’d venture to say that ancient Egypt did, too.
But since I’m 100% Irish (as far as I know, at least), it’s not as if the accomplishments of the ancient Egyptians would reflect well on ME if they were all white. And there’s absolutely no reason for latter-day black Americans to feel special pride over the accomplishments of dark-skinned ancient Egyptians.
Whatever color he was, the Egyptian who designed the pyramids was a genius. HE deserves the credit. Not modern-day Americans who happen to share his skin color (whatever that happened to be).
There is MUCH worth studying and admiring in ancient Egyptian culture, but it should be studied for its own inherent value- NOT as a way of instilling “pride” or “self-esteem” in the people who study it. As far as I know, my ancient Celtic ancestors never produced a great mathematician or astronomer- is that any excuse for ME flunking math or astronomy? Should schools falsely tell Irish-American kids that the ancient Hibernians were brilliant scientists, to bolster their self-esteem, and lead them to study harder?
Of COURSE not! And yet, to a disturbing extent, latter-day interest in Egypt is driven by a pathetic need to bolster black kids’ pride… to convince them that their ancestors were technological wizards (whether or not it’s true seems irrelevant).
From what I’ve read about studies done on Egyptian mummies and skeletons, there was a considerable range of types from Mediterrean European to sub-Saharan African at all levels of society.
You have to go by skeletons, though, since many mummification processes (there were several in use at any particular time) would darken the skin. Some of them would also turn hair red. So some would argue - look the dark skin, this person is obviously sub-Saharan. And some others would say - look at the red hair - obviously Caucasian. Which might account for some of the arguing.
In Egyptian art, men and women are consistently portrayed with different skin colors. But I’ve yet to hear that anyone truly expects the two sexes of any race to be such different colors.
I just have to jump in with a few comments from the art history camp. As Colibri mentioned, we do have a large visual record from Ancient Egypt. However, it is important to keep in mind that the vast majority of surviving Egyptian art depicts a fairly small segment of the population – usually the ruling and priestly classes. Even depictions of daily life that include servants or foot soldiers are part of a larger artistic tradition that is certainly stylized, if not entirely idealized.
One long-lasting trend in Egyptian art was to depict males with very dark skin, and females with very light skin. Not only were people immortalized in painting and sculpture that way, but often cosmetics were used to create that fashion in daily life. The reasons for this are not clear, but it’s highly unlikely that the purpose had anything to do with how we view the construct of race today. One possible explanation is that darker skin indicated a man’s military prowess. Or, it could be purely aesthetic, as Egyptian art in general employs the use of high visual contrasts, and “black and white” might have been seen as simply the most striking way to depict people.
Just to illustrate how confusing it can be to base too many assumptions on Egyptian art, we can look at Mentuhotep II. Not many images of him survive, but those that do often show him as very dark skinned, and plausibly more similar to what we might consider typical sub-Saharan Africans features. However, I have seen several theories as to why, exactly, this is. Just a few examples:
We know from source material that he was from the ruling family of Thebes (in the North). Two possibilities here – he was more similar to typical Middle Eastern peoples, and depicted otherwise for some reason (more on that later), or, he was actually more similar to sub-Saharan Africans, which would reflect a diverse society in the North as early as the start of the Middle Kingdom.
Some scholars believe that he wasn’t in fact from the ruling family of Thebes at all, and that he was a military leader who came up from the South, and then did a little revising to the historical record in order to support and legitimize his claim to the throne (not an uncommon occurrence). This theory gained moderate support about 20 years ago, although it’s not as widely subscribed to now.
One of Mentuhotep’s claims to fame is that he reunited the nation of Egypt after a period of some fragmenting, and conquered Nubia. One interesting speculation (but admittedly sort of left field-ish) is that the depictions of Mentuhoptep as somewhat Nubian in looks are intended to commemorate this accomplishment.
I’m sorry this doesn’t shed any light on the question posed by the OP, but I wanted to chime in with a reminder that our excellent visual record of ancient Egypt doesn’t make this particular issue much clearer.
Yet, right now, you’re surrounded by racists and sexists. If you’re doing it deliberately here-um, I think the mods might have something to say about that.
D’oh! I mean, right now, you’re NOT surrounded by racists and sexists!
:mad:
Stupid typos! Preview, Guin, PREVIEW!!!
But in the meantime, here’s a cite for Cleopatra, the Greeks and what not
Save the cheap ethnocentric soapbox for GD, Collounsbury is 100 percent correct on the matter of Cleopatra’s ethnicity.
Alexander the Great of Macedon took Egypt from the Persians in 322 BC. After Alexander’s death. Egypt fell to one of Alecander’s Macedonian generals, who founded the Ptolemaic dynasty that ruled Egypt for the next 300 years. In accordance with Egyptiian royal custom, the Ptolemies intermarried, so Cleopatra came from Macedonian, that is Caucasian, stock. Cleopatra wasn’t black, although some of her Egyptian subjects from the Nubian border undoubtedly were.
Fair comment, but my original point was not trolling- I said:
‘I like to think of Cleopatra as black,- as I like to think of God as female- as a reminder not to be a euro-centered male in outlook.’
It was only after I was flamed that I responded.
I will stop supporting this point now.
To return to factual issues we should note in regards to the Cleopatra angle and the Ptolemies that they did not immediately adopt the Pharonic practice of incestual or at least in-family marriage.
As such, it is certainly possible, indeed likely that Cleopatra had some Egyptian Egyptian blood in her, directly through Ptolemies or indirectly through other Macedonians. However, it would have been a bit distant.
In any case, this is a silly dispute.
Of note, in regards to the genetics issue --I haven’t the time to read the articles linked through the link quite as yet-- is that in general North East Africa represents a “bud” off of African diversity and that extra-African diversity appears to be derivative of them. With all that we are talking about quite minor variation.
Q: What race were the ancient Egyptians?
A: Human.
I’m ashamed of you all.