This is how you blow a very winnable election

Politics & Elections
181

No, that poll is telling me what the priorities of middle class suburbanites are. Those who live under the terror and oppression of an out of control police force have very real concerns for the safety and dignity of themselves and their peers.

You are correct that it does not seem to be a priority for many of those who are not directly affected. Sad that.

Do you think that the Democrats can afford to lose that 15%?

If people refuse to vote for Democrats because they don’t condemn the peaceful demonstrations against police brutality, they were looking for a reason to not support the party.

If people don’t bother to turn out for a party that turned their back on them in their time of need, well, that’s perfectly understandable.

Unfortunately, even with a John Lewis style march, there is always going to be the possibility of violence. Everything from outside agitators, people just looking to break stuff, or even supporters who are too angry, there will be a chance that someone does something… unsociable.

The only way to absolutely prevent any violence or destruction, and even the smallest acts will be amplified out of proportion, is to not have any demonstrations at all.

It is punishing the peaceful demonstrators for the actions of others over whom they have no control.

This was exactly the attitude of taking black votes for granted that resulted in them not turning out in 2016.

You really think that if Biden condemns those who have chanted “Defund the police” that that will not hurt his prospects?

Yes, the ones that show up will overwhelmingly go for Biden. The ones who show up.

Right, but if you are against police reform, then there is no reason to listen to your criticism of it. There is no reason to believe that you actually have the best interests of those who are tired of being terrorized in their own neighborhoods, even their own homes, in mind when you tell them how they should go about begging for the oppression to stop.

I am pro-choice, why should a pro-lifer listen to me when I complain about their messaging, even if there are other things we may agree upon?

Are you so against police reform that you would not vote for Biden over it? If Biden does declare sweeping changes to implement in law enforcement and criminal justice, would that make you support Trump instead?

I doubt it, based on what you have said here and in the past, but I guarantee you that if Biden promises to you that there will be no changes or reform, there will be a whole lot of people who don’t bother to vote for him.

I probably still would, but far less enthusiastically.

182

We can condemn the violence. I have no problem with that, I enthusiastically agree with that.

Violent and even extremely rude acts (like the diner incident) should not happen, and calling out, and even helping to prosecute those who cross the line should be encouraged.

Telling them what they should say, what they should rally around, is a different matter entirely.

183

It may not seem like it to those who pay the slightest bit of attention to my posts, but I very much sympathize with progressive, pro-social democracy platforms. I would not be a very good Canadian if I did not. However, I am also a pragmatist and I understand that the majority of America pisses its pants at the suggestion of social liberalism. While it is true that Bernie Sanders gave oxygen to the more left leaning ideology, it is equally true that non-republicans rejected him every time. Everyone should take that to heart. Which is not to mean that the ideology of social democracy is not viable. Only that it is not viable yet. To insist that the politicians and the Democratic party has abandoned socially democratic ideals in false on its face. The party and the politicians understand that you can’t get there from here without abandoning the majority of non-republican voters by abandoning them and embracing the most left-leaning progressives. So a compromise must be reached. More often than not, it’s the most left leaning progressives that refuse to compromise while accusing the more moderate non-republican majority of abandoning them. It’s absurd on its face and it is the true cause behind any splintering we may see among the ranks of Democrats and their independent allies.

184

But…many of us non-republicans agree with everything Bernie advocates — we only “rejected” him as our candidate for national office because we’re pretty sure he’d lose to a much, much, much, much, much, much worse person than him, whereas the alternative candidate has a much better chance of beating that much, much, much, much worse person.

(Basically, I agree with your post).

185

I supported him in the 2016 primaries, but between my disagreement on nuclear (one of my “one issue voting priorities”) and that I felt his endorsement of Clinton was late and feeble, I did not in 2020.

186

These are not remotely credible cites. “Some guy says” is not actually a cite. But that you’re willing to slander the dead does say something about you.

187

I believe Sam_Stone cited a poll that suggests how important messaging is in achieving support for your policies/ideas. Political operatives are highly attuned to this kind of data, IMO. And while the numbers broken down tell a predictably different story:

The slogan is unpopular with most demographic groups, too, with two notable exceptions: Black Americans and Democrats. In the two polls where results were broken down by race, Black respondents said they supported defunding the police by an average of 45 percent to 28 percent, while white respondents opposed it by an average of 61 percent to 23 percent. This is in line with other polls that have consistently shown that white people mostly see police in a favorable light, while Black people are likelier to have experienced mistreatment at officers’ hands and take the problem of police violence seriously. So what we’re seeing here may be another reflection of Black and white Americans’ different experiences with police.

Similarly, in the three polls with breakdowns by party, Democrats on average supported the “defund the police” movement 50 percent to 34 percent, and Republicans on average opposed it 84 percent to 11 percent. Granted, only about a quarter of Democrats “strongly” supported it, per Morning Consult/Politico and Reuters/Ipsos, but three-quarters of Republicans “strongly” opposed it.

…Democrats know that if they win, they will need to govern all Americans, not just the ones that voted for them. So the more temperate message is more likely to appeal to the widest population and not serve to make the ideologically pure the enemy of the achievable.

188

I’ve linked to the NY Times and journalist Andy Ngô who has a blue-check verified Twitter account. Where are you seeing “Some guy says” ?

189

Since when are professional trolls getting blue ribbons?

190

I thought that this thread was about election prosepects.

Telling people what they should say as they speak out against the government becuase it may hurt your election prospects is tone deaf, and I think will backfire.

Telling people what they should say because the opposing party doesn’t like it is just insane.

As I said, if Biden came out and told people to stop saying “Defund the police” because he was afraid that it would turn off moderate democrats, then I would still vote for him, but less enthusiastically.

If his reason for it was because republicans don’t like it, I don’t know that I could bring myself to turn out.

191

I, for one, am quite impressed that Rittenhouse was able to identify, in the crowd, a “known sex offender”, isolate him and take careful aim while firing indiscriminately into the crowd.

WTF does a post facto determination of the victim have to do with a dumb white asshole firing into a crowd? This is an absolutely stupid rationalization of the actions of an up-and-coming white nationalist.

And, as has been pointed out, Andy Ngo is an established liar. And offering his twitter credentials as evidence of his veracity is a pretty weak defense. In fact, it’s not a defense at all.

192

I don’t think Rolling Stone is in a position to criticize journalistic practices.

193

A responsible publication issues a retraction when they are wrong.

Has your “source” issued any retractions when he was wrong?

194

Trump has a blue check. Blue check says nothing about someone’s honesty, integrity, or accuracy. Ngo is a known liar, and generally a terrible, inaccurate “journalist”.

195

You’re just firing into the crowd now.

196

What special significance do you think a blue check mark has? All it means is that your a public figure and twitter is verifying that your account is actually you. If Kim Jong Un used twitter he would have a blue check.

197

I can’t seem to copy the link correctly, but if you go to the Wisconsin DOC Sex Offender Registry and search for Joseph Rosenbaum, it shows there is no offender found.

So I don’t know what Andy Ngo is doing to get that image he is showing.

198

It may be a HIPPA violation, but if you check with Ngô’s proctologist, we may find the source he pulled this out of.

199

And I’m saying Democratic election prospects improve by not embracing the “Defund the Police”. You agree it’s a poor message and have never used it. So what are we still talking about?

I’m not telling people what they can or cannot say. People can and will say whatever they please. But we’re on a message board discussing politics and political views. Commenting on what people say in that context is par for the course. What specific rule of social discourse am I violating by saying that words matter when expressing certain ideology and the means by which people are more or less likely to achieve it?

200

No the NY Times never issued a retraction for the Russian collusion stories.