This shirt is illegal in 52 countries

Factual Questions
101

Well, let’s say that I have never talked to an extremist Muslim. Even among Christian sects the issue of graven images is not consistently interpreted, so I find it plausible that some extremist Muslims would reject Christianity on that basis.

Haven’t actually been there, and have met only a few people who have. I have no plans to go myself. Perhaps it’s not the law, though the cite I provided is as close as I could find as to a description of law from a reliable source. But however interesting this discussion is, we don’t seem to be getting any closer to a factual answer as to what the law actually is specifically regarding a cross on a T-shirt.

102

Rock the Casbah! Rock the Casbah!:smiley:

103

I really really really doubt that. The “Shariah Bill” as you call it or more accuratly the Fifteenth Amendment to the Constitution of Pakistan was in two versions

As presented and withrawn.

As actually passed by the lower house and finally defeated in the upper house.

Niether states anything about “Dhimmitude” and more accurately it was a very Middle Eastern concept. You did not have Dhimmi’s since about 1550; the Emperor Akbar’s time.

104

I see Sudan is also on their list. Here’s news about some oppressed Christians in Sudan.

105

The dhimma was ended only by the Hatti Humayan edict in 1856. And that only applied to the Ottoman Empire. Khomeini’s argues in “On Islamic Government” that all non-Muslims in the rest of the Muslim world must be required to pay the jizya in exchange for receiving the protection of the state without military and other obligations.

And I’m not sure what you mean by it being a very Middle Eastern concept. Certainly it was a concept born in the Middle East, and probably borrowed from the Eastern Roman Empire. But it spread far beyond the region, from Morocco and Spain in the west to Indonesia in the East. In fact, you mention Akbar–a Mughal Emperor who was born in Pakistan, grew up in Afghanistan, and spent most of his rule campaigning throughout India.

If you’re saying that nobody in Pakistan has used the word or concept since Akbar, what about, say, Javed Ahmad Ghamidi?

I suppose you’re right that it’s not a good word to use, because of the negative connotations (especially from the 19th century, and reawoken more recently in Lebanon). But it is the legal word for non-Muslims living under Sharia, and any Muslim nation that allows freedom of worship, freedom from conscription, protection from outsiders, etc. is abiding by their side of the contract whether or not they enforce the other side. This is part of sharia law.

As for Nawaz Sharif, he probably didn’t actually use the word “dhimmi” in his talks with the Clinton Administration, but he certainly used the word “protected” (which is just the English translation), and he claimed that any Muslim state is obligated to protect non-Muslims.

106

True. Honestly, the only way we’re likely to find out for sure is to ask a Saudi jurist or legal scholar.

But my point still stands: So far nobody’s turned up any evidence that the t-shirt would be illegal in a single country, much less in 52 of them. At best, people have suggested that it might possibly be illegal in 4 to 6 countries. And it seems pretty likely that the people who design and sell the shirt know it isn’t true. The shirt is a cake.

107

I see you are predicating your argument on the basis of Conjectures, presumptions and surmises. Most Pakistanis would not even know what “dhimmi” means outside of religious scholars, I never knew what it meant until I went to the UK.

If you talk about protection to minorities then NS would have been referring to Articles 20-22 of the Constitution which protect minority right and as NS was trained as a lawyer (though he never practiced) this is almost certainly what he was referring to.

108

We’ve gotten way off topic here, so let me first say: You’re mostly right here, and I apologize for taking us off track.

But, as far as it affects the topic of this thread, I think we’d agree that Pakistan would be unlikely to ban a cross t-shirt.

Now, on to the details:

Yes, it was a mistake for me to bring up the dhimma in this context.

The Council of Islamic Ideology and its predecessor advisory bodies do take the contract into account in advising the government. At least two members of the CII has spoken and written about this.

But that doesn’t mean that the general public, or even the government, necessarily sees things in those terms. And you’re completely right, it was an unwarranted conjecture to assume they do.

JAG points out that this is exactly what it means for a Muslim state to uphold its side of the contract without requiring the dhimmi to uphold their side (except that it’s missing the freedom from conscription). It’s one of his examples for the idea that democracy grows out of Islamic law, and therefore Muslim countries don’t need to borrow extensively from the west.

But, reading it over, it’s a good secular Constitution. That’s probably the only way a businessman/politician with legal training, or anyone but a religious scholar trying to make a point, would read it. And, even if those weren’t his personal thoughts, that’s almost certainly how he’d present it to worried western allies.

So, you’re right, I assumed NS was speaking of the dhimma (in JAG’s terms), but he probably wasn’t.

109

There have been attempt to ban religious literature and have failed spectacularly as the case below shows

I would say that yes, at least in Pakistan a shirt with a cross won’t be illegal.

Finally about the CII, it is a joke, their job is to write memos which no one reads, except the press and or media on a slow day to manufacture controversy.

110

As of 2009 it is 53 countries and it is broke down like this 40 restricted nations and 13 hostile areas. In 13 cases it is not the whole country and the shirt does say that. You just need to read the whole shirt.

111

So it is like having a shirt that reads:

I wonder how that would go down in, say, America.

112

It’s ironic cite to data from three years ago in a thread from two years ago.

113

As kids we were taught that wearing a cross outside of your clothes as decoration was wrong.

I could see in some countries people being stopped before entering certain churches or religious areas dressed inappropriately.

114

Edit: Never mind - didn’t spot that this was a zombie thread

115

Hm… doesn’t look like the shirt would stop zombies. Vampires, now… that’s different. Never could figure out why Buffy never had crosses tattooed on her neck.

116

Now I have to get a T-shirt that says in big letters, Cite? With an arrow pointing to the person wearing the illegal-in-52-countries shirt. Of course I’d die of old age before I could make use of it. Still, it’s better to be prepared.

Sorta like white after Labour Day.

117

In Germany and a number of other countries, wearing a shirt with a swastica or pro (neo) nazi is illegal.

Of course, rising fascism (like in Hungary) can always make its point through other means.

My personal opinion is that is a terrible move, and I am a Survivor’s son, and everyone else, excluding my Mom, were murdered.
This of course requires a faith in that simple grass-roots activism, especially in the light of historic disaster, will have little, if any, national traction.

Of course, I’ve been wrong before.

118

The shirt simply exists so that the American conservative christian majority can live within their bubble and pretend that they’re actually the persecuted.

119

Why? Did you read the whole thread?

120

Or that they’re somehow morally superior.