This War That Can Not Be Won.

My biggest problem is, who is “they”? Is one or more “rings” of terrorist extremists? Is it the countries that have allowed them to exist within their bordeors, or actively supported them?
I trust any response will depend on answering that question.

-I certainly do not wish to be involved in a protracted war in Afghanistan. Russia had enough experience with that.
-Maybe we could support the resistance forces in Afgh? But, we supported the Taliban against Russia, and that didn’t turn out too hot.
-I do not know the resources of our military/intelligence, but I suspect it is somewhat less than assured that we would be able to get OBL quickly and easily. Tho I do support repealing the executive order against assassination.
-Do we penalize the entire country for the acts of what may be a minority? How many dying babies will Americans tolerate on TV?
-Moreover, assuming for a moment that this action was a response to our previous actions in the Arab world, we must acknowledge that our actions tomorrow will similarly have repercussions. If we carpet bomb Afghanistan, will that encourage additional Arabs to hate the US and take action on those convictions?
-We may make it nigh impossible for anyone to hijack a plane and fly it into crowded buildings, but then there are: car bombs; bombs strapped to your body and won into bars, museums, schools, hospitals, sporting events, etc.; sniping opportunities; etc.
-There also is the legitimate concern of not lowering yourself to their level. No number of dead muslim civilians will bring Tuesday’s dead back to life.
-OTOH, perhaps the only effective response is to kill not only the perpetrators, but their spouses, children, family, friends, etc. Fight terror with terror.

As long as folk exist who think their quickest route to heaven lies across dead American bodies, a risk remains. The question is how to minimize that risk, without overly burdening ourselves.

Bottomline, this situation does not have a simple certain solution. I’m not saying any one of these factors dictates that we act one way or another. Just it kind of bothers me when I hear folk talk simplistically as tho we just have to go in somewhere with guns a blazing to teach those bastards a lesson.

[QUOTE]
The solution is to declare war on any country that supports any terrorist organization and then actually fight the war.QUOTE]

That could be hundreds of countries. I don’t think we need to do that.

There is a simple solution and we are already doing it. The US is handling this very well. Unfortunately humans have a fatal flaw and that is:we kill. So…until we can someday grow above that, we need to do what we do best…make no mistake, when we are at war with Afganistan it will be nothing like Russia fighting them. We have the latest intelligence,hardware and techniques that will pulverise them quickly. You can bet that Delta Force is in the region preparing as we speak, in fact my close friend is alpha team Delta and he already left for “somewhere”. These guys will get Bin, but like I already said, that is just the first step. On a side note, my girlfriend was waiting on a table at her restaurant here in Florida and the woman she was waiting on turned out to be the owner of the travel agency that sold the tickets to the highjackers…she was so upset about it, but what could she have done really? How could you know? A mother of one of the victims called up the owner of the flight school where they went and was bitching at him saying “I would have been able to tell they were up to something!” that is the most absurd and rude thing I have ever heard. I understand that she is grieving but good god, like the poor guy dosent already feel like crap. He had no way of knowing the were going to crash planes into buildings!

There are 189 member states of the United Nations, so obviously it’s not going to be hundreds of coutries.

There are very few countries that provide support to terrorists. Notify them, provide them with a suggested plan of action complete with assistance, and let them know that if they don’t make a good faith effort executing the plan (or an alternative plan that accomplishes the same objectives) you will replace them with a government that can.

Guess what Chubbs—that’s what is going to happen.

There were just under 3,000 casualties at Pearl Harbor. There are expected to be almost twice that amount from Tuesday’s attack. How many American’s must die in your mind before you are ready to defend our freedoms? You seem to view the actions were are embarking to take as retaliation. The actions we are preparing to take are to significantly reduce the chances of what happened on Tuesday of ever happening again! These actions are to save future lives.

There is a simple solution and we are already doing it. The US is handling this very well. Unfortunately humans have a fatal flaw and that is:we kill. So…until we can someday grow above that, we need to do what we do best…make no mistake, when we are at war with Afganistan it will be nothing like Russia fighting them. We have the latest intelligence,hardware and techniques that will pulverise them quickly. You can bet that Delta Force is in the region preparing as we speak, in fact my close friend is alpha team Delta and he already left for “somewhere”. These guys will get Bin, but like I already said, that is just the first step. On a side note, my girlfriend was waiting on a table at her restaurant here in Florida and the woman she was waiting on turned out to be the owner of the travel agency that sold the tickets to the highjackers…she was so upset about it, but what could she have done really? How could you know? A mother of one of the victims called up the owner of the flight school where they went and was bitching at him saying “I would have been able to tell they were up to something!” that is the most absurd and rude thing I have ever heard. I understand that she is grieving but good god, like the poor guy dosent already feel like crap. He had no way of knowing the were going to crash planes into buildings!

Chubbs-

Military options alone will not do it. The US working alone will not do it. That is why the Bush Administration is taking a mulitfaceted approach.

  1. Isolate the few countries (Syria, Libya, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.) that CURRENTLY harbor or support terrorists. You do this through the international community. Cut them off diplomatically and financially from all other nations in the world.

  2. Go after all aspects of the terrorist networks. Seize bank accounts, prohibit travel, as well as killing their members and destroying their facilities.

  3. Encourage those countries currently involved to join the rest of the civilized world by setting up incentives to turning these people over and renouncing their ties to terrorists.

  4. Intensify diplomatic efforts to solve ongoing problems. (e.g., Israel & Palestinians)

  5. Enlist other nations in the fight. Gove them a part in the ilitary and diplomatic efforts. Get them to seize and go after terrorists with the US. Make them partners and give them just as big a stake in the outcome. (You can see the administration doing this with countries like Pakistan, Russia, and China.)

The point is that one this one issue, as the Bush Administration and John McCain have said:

You are either with us or against us. If you are against us may God have mercy on your soul because we certainly won’t.

Chubbs-

Military options alone will not do it. The US working alone will not do it. That is why the Bush Administration is taking a mulitfaceted approach.

  1. Isolate the few countries (Syria, Libya, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.) that CURRENTLY harbor or support terrorists. You do this through the international community. Cut them off diplomatically and financially from all other nations in the world.

  2. Go after all aspects of the terrorist networks. Seize bank accounts, prohibit travel, as well as killing their members and destroying their facilities.

  3. Encourage those countries currently involved to join the rest of the civilized world by setting up incentives to turning these people over and renouncing their ties to terrorists.

  4. Intensify diplomatic efforts to solve ongoing problems. (e.g., Israel & Palestinians)

  5. Enlist other nations in the fight. Give them a part in the military and diplomatic efforts. Get them to seize and go after terrorists with the US. Make them partners and give them just as big a stake in the outcome. (You can see the administration doing this with countries like Pakistan, Russia, and China.)

The point is that on this one issue, as the Bush Administration and John McCain have said:

You are either with us or against us. If you are against us may God have mercy on your soul because we certainly won’t.

(Doh, computer hiccup.)

One other thing that has to be done. You have to increase efforts by all nations to infiltrate these groups and share any information they receive to thwart any new attacks. These efforts will be rudimentary and unsuccessful at first but will get better with time.

…is no matter our response it will not even come close to what they deserve. We do not target women and children. They do. The fact is they are a small group spread all over the world. Of course our intelligence is good but it can’t be all knowing. It is our cockiness that will be our undoing. Yes we have the best Military in the world. Yes this is the best place to live. No we are not invincible. You can almost bet after we strike another act will take place here on our soil. Look now we have already lost some of our freedom. We have already given in to terrorism.

Maybe you have given in to terrorism…but I haven’t. This is no different than letting the bully on the playground get away with his bullying tactics. It’s time for the rest of the kids to stand-up and say “enough!” You cannot act like that on this play-ground. Chubbs you are letting them win. We cannot cower and give-up.

Our grandparents generation did not cower, nor should we!

I can pretty much guarantee we have no friends in iraq who are interested in having us ‘liberate’ them.

In my oppinion I believe this war can be won so long as people and governments involved realize two things:

  1. Other nations who have pledged to help fight Terrorism must show that commitment through actions not just condemnations.

  2. The American public will have to sit back and realize that this is not going to be a conventional war with sorties and Smartbombs, but more covert and police like actions. The only way to defeat Terrorist organizations is to break down those organizations bit by bit.

In a way it’s like the way the mob has had its power lessened. First you take the head of the organization and then you raid any assets they possess, weapons or funds.

Then you keep up intelligence on potential new leadership and eliminate them and keep bleeding them dry until the leadership and funding is so poor the only thing they can get away with is painting nasty slogans on the wall.

This will take a great deal of resolve and money. It will be a war of attrition and it will be long. But this will have a better result than merely bombing a nation to retaliate.

Oh while I’m thinking about this, I’m hoping this battle against terrorism moves beyond just the Middle East.

So, if the terrorists have such capabilites as you suggest, why are they not hitting us again now? We are currently still reeling from their last attack. This would be the obvious time to strike again, not when we find them. They (terrorists) know we have declared war on them. Yet they are not “following through”.

To give in to the fear, to fall into defeatism, that is what the terrorists want. If we do just that, then, and only then, are we giving in to terrorism.

The more I think of it, the more I have to question the course of action we are taking. This kind of “war” will continue forever if one of the two sides does not act to stem the tides of hatred. We won’t win until every terrorist is dead. They won’t win until the US is erased from the map.

However, judging from the history of conflict between this brand of terrorism and Israel, we can hunt down and execute anyone who’s ever had anything to do with Bin Laden, from his mom to his tailor, but it won’t stop the recruitment of more and more terrorists. It won’t stop the war. The Mossad have been at this game for a long time, and everyone agrees that they’re one of the finest intelligence organizations that has ever existed. There have been many Osama bin Laden type figures in the world of terrorism, and the Mossad and other intelligence organizations have hunted them down. Nevertheless, Iraelis are still dying, car bombs are still exploding, suicide bombers are still blasting their way to paradise, and it’s not getting any better. Imposing ourselves deeper into the anti-terrorism game might slow them down, but it won’t stop them. It definitely won’t bring back the good ol’ days of comfort and security between our shores. It will, however, give them all the more reason to infiltrate our mainland and commit more and more acts of unspeakable horror. Just as the number of people enlisting in the service has increased after 9/11, so shall the number of people that will join ranks with our enemies with the making of every martyr.

What it boils down to is, they can’t beat us, but we can’t beat them either.

So what can we do?

The only answer to stopping this madness is the same answer that has been preached through the ages by Jesus, Mohammed, Ghandi, even the Beatles. We must take the high road, and find the path to Love. We MUST find a way to get along with our brothers in the middle east. We MUST repair the damage we’ve caused there (and other parts of the world for that matter.) We MUST find common ground to stand on and embrace those that have turned their anger upon us.
Sometimes, it is better to fight fire with water.

The elder Bush once said that we need to become a kinder, gentler nation. Liberals and conservatives, Republicans and Democrats alike, should all realize that this statement is more important now than it ever has been. In fact, we should all realize that it’s probably one of the greatest things any American president has ever said.

“America is never wholly herself unless she is engaged in high moral principle. We as a people have such a purpose today. It is to make kinder the face of a nation and gentler the face of the world.”

I realize that it would be impossible to keep us from exacting some kind of revenge for what has happened, but I implore this great nation to be satisfied with a cup of blood, rather than an ocean.
All you need is love.

can anyone name a precedent for eradicating a belief? Especially one based on religion?

In WWII, military might was able to wipe out naziism, and japan’s nationalism. But a religion? I’d like to see an example of previous success before we start arming the missiles.

because our defenses are up, we are united, and defiant.

But we have traditionally had short attention spans. This is a new world, so that may no longer be true.

But if our attention spans do not change, our unity and resolve will flag within 24 months. We will no longer wish to spend so much on defense and counterterrorism, when there are other important causes for our money. We will tire of the infringement on our civil liberties that some say are now necessary. Budgets will get cut, the air marshalls will be reduced.

our guard will come back down someday.
then they will hit us again.

Exaclty. The war will never end unless one or both of the sides does something to bring about positive change in our attitudes. And I guarantee you that killing each other won’t do it.

Audient—

I think many Islamics would quibble your statement that the WTC and Pentagon assaults were legitimately based in religion, but I will take a stab at answering your question and that is: Yes there is a precedent.

The Israelites for one wiped out or subjugated a number of competing people in the Middle East, particularly the Canaanites in coming to power.

The Roman Catholic Church was effective in destroying not only dominant pagan religions of Europe but also competing Christian views including the Celtic Church, Cathars, the Albeginsian Heresy, and Gnostics.

The conquests of Persia by Anthony the Great may effectively have lead to the decline of Zoroastrianism (which I may very well have spelled wrongly).

Spanish conquests in the Americas and Phillipeans destroyed many local religions.

American conquests in the West undoubtedly led to the decline of many Native American religions (though some still percevere). And of course American victory in WWII led to the end of Emperor worship in Japan.

I am sure that there are many more such examples.

audient… we’re not so interested in eradicating a belief or religion… we’re interested in stopping one particular action, killing of innocent americans via terrorist acts.

they can still think/believe whatever they want… but I want to add one little thought to their minds… if I blow up a bunch of their civilians, they WILL (not might, will) come over here and decimate not just my particular cell, but everything they know and love…

sort of make them think… well when Atta flew a plane into the WTC twin towers, we had cluster munitions and fuel air devices rainging down on all of afganistan for 4 weeks, followed by armored cavalry, followed by marine occupation, my wife/daughter/son/father/mother were turned into hamburger… wow that sucked, I don’t want to cause that kind of retaliation…

like was said before… put a little fear of god into them.

note: all statements made here should be taken with a very large grain of salt, this attack affected me on a personal level and I would like to personally torture people to death… but as it is, I will simply voluteer my time and money to NYC…