There is no way this war can even be fought. Sure you bomb their camps, whoopee do. I’d wager they are hundreds of terrorists in this country alone. What would happen after we do attack? Our schools, public gatherings like sporting events will be targeted. How do you defend against that? You can’t. If someone wants to do something evil they probably could since they have the element of surprise. It is sad to say that if we do attack the Mid East a lot more Americans may die on our homeland than overseas.
If we don’t attack a lot more Americans are going to die too. Isn’t it painfully obvious that they are already hitting us as hard as they can? The arguement that if we strike back they will increase their attacks is false. They are already hitting us as fast and as hard as they can and will continue to do so until we remove that capability from them.
You obviously do not know what are true capabilities in these matters are.
http://library.byu.edu/~rdh/eurodocs/uk/peace.html
Peace For Our Time
by Neville Chamberlain
The following is the wording of the printed statement that Neville Chamberlain waved as he stepped off the plane on 30
September, 1938 after the Munich Conference had ended the day before:
“We, the German Führer and Chancellor, and the British Prime Minister, have had a further meeting today and are agreed in
recognizing that the question of Anglo-German relations is of the first importance for our two countries and for Europe. We regard the agreement signed last night and the Anglo-German Naval Agreement as symbolic of the desire of our two peoples never to go to war with one another again.
We are resolved that the method of consultation shall be the method adopted to deal with any other questions that may concern our two countries, and we are determined to continue our efforts to remove possible sources of difference, and thus to contribute to assure the peace of Europe.”
Chamberlain read the above statement in front of 10 Downing St. and said:
“My good friends, for the second time in our history, a British Prime Minister has returned from Germany bringing peace with honour. I believe it is peace for our time…
Go home and get a nice quiet sleep.”
Chubbs, what do you propose America does? Ask the Taliban nicely to turn over OBL? What if they say “no”? How effective were the trials of the first WTC bombers in throwing the fear of God into those who declared war on us on Tuesday? How do we protect ourselves? If these people who have declared war on us see that we won’t fight back and defend our people and our beliefs with our lives if necessary, do you think they’ll be MORE or LESS likely to do this again?
I’ve seen a lot of pacifist comments in the past few days. Some come from deeply held spiritual beliefs and should be respected. Others seem to take this defeatist form–we can’t win. We can, but it will take sacrifice, patriotism, belief, things I’m not sure many of my fellow 30-year-olds or people of the next generation have. It will take allowing the military to win the war, something they haven’t been allowed to do since WWII. We’ve been indoctrinated that violence is never a solution. That’s wrong, sometimes it is. The method of consultation didn’t work for Neville Chamberlain, and it’s not going to work here.
we can do that much damage to make all of terrorism stop. Sure killing them will hurt them but think about it for a moment. We go attack, they get pissed, they attack us, (we have to prove who did it again) we attack them. It’s an endless cycle as I see it you can’t win.
First of all Chubbs Calm down man!! Damn the last thing Americans need is someone thinking we can’t handle this. We are not only going to handle what is going on but we are going to do an unprecidented job at it.
And in case you haven’t noticed security on our own soil has quadrupled even quintupled around all the major cities. Some cities you may not see it exactly but let me tell you its there.
Also if there are still terrorists on US soil, which is a likely scenerio. After we attack OBL the last thing they are going to do is disgrace themselves and hit a sporting event or something else public. That could be likened to walking into a cave full of hungry sleeping lionesses. Its just idiotic and unnoteworthy.
I.E. calm down. and support the efforts of our country, we need the people of the USA strong.
Apparently you missed my questions, Chubb. I’ll post them again. I’m interested in your answers. You seem to be indicating we should do nothing.
What do you propose America does? Ask the Taliban nicely to turn over OBL? What if they say “no”? How effective were the trials of the first WTC bombers in throwing the fear of God into those who declared war on us on Tuesday? How do we protect ourselves? If these people who have declared war on us see that we won’t fight back and defend our people and our beliefs with our lives if necessary, do you think they’ll be MORE or LESS likely to do this again?
No, it’s called a war. We’re larger than they are, far better armed, and resolved. All we need is for the military not to be hamstrung the way they were in Vietnam. Sure, they’ll retaliate. So what? They will keep killing us until we kill them. That’s war. The only difference is that if we don’t fight back and defend ourselves, we will be an even weaker and more pathetic target for them.
Japan, Germany, and Italy are allies and stable democracies today because a group of Allies decided that the evil they were promulgating in the 30s and 40s would not be allowed to stand. We damn near had to destroy each of those countries to do it, but it was worth it. Wasn’t it?
What if we took a two pronged approach? Go in and get whoever caused this and punish them. Very soon afterwards however, step up goodwill efforts in the region. That was the approach we took with Japan after WWII and it worked quite well. Also, listen to their greivances towards the US and take steps to repair whatever damage we’ve done to foster hatred. Does that mean reducing our support for Israel? Perhaps, but what’s more important, our security, or Israels? Does this mean reducing our presence in the area? Maybe, but if that’s what it takes to keep our country safe, then why not?
A possible long term solution:
If we consider that the only reason we give a rats ass about that area is because of oil, then the best way to protect our country is to aggressively pursue alternative energy sources like the feul cell. If we don’t need their oil, then we don’t need to be there. If we don’t buy their oil, the financing for their terrorism dries up.
Am I being overly-simplistic?
I am symphathetic to this OP. I would further note that the difficulties we face will multiply if the public’s feelings (and resolve) soften over time.
There are some problems that don’t have adequate solutions.
This is not to say that I advocate doing nothing. But I am pessimistic about how much can be accomplished.
Yes, bomzaway, I think you are being a little overly simplistic, because the people who have the biggest stake in the oil industry consider their bottom line the most important thing in the world. Switching to alternate fuel sources leaves a lot of Very Important People out in the cold, and they are also Very Powerful People.
I don’t know. The Allies did fight Japan into unconditional surrender. Their war machine was dismantled. The empire was toppled. They were occupied by us until they could set up a democratic government. The differences seem large to me.
I think we need to defeat the enemy first, then implement goodwill gestures. To do anything else will not solve the problem.
Thank you IzzyR. I would attack as any American would. But I know the possible repercussions that will happen afterwards. That means no one is safe.
Bomzaway
Am I being overly-simplistic?
[/quote]
Maybe, but that seems the most well-thought-out long-term solution I have heard yet. Excellent post.
It’s been shown 3 days ago that it’s not a safe world. It’s not going to be a safe world until these scum are defeated utterly.
If the point of your OP is that we need to steel ourselves for high death counts both among the military and civilians, you’re right, we do. However, we’ve already had high death counts among the military and civilians this week. We didn’t start this war. But we must end it.
Chubbs - I think that you are a bit short-sighted. I would agree with you if the world was only after the culprits responsible for this act. I believe that what is planned is something on a much greater scale than that.
We will see the complete take-over of many governments and occupation similar to what happened at the end of World War II. This will not be a one-month strike and we’re done like the Gulf War. This will take a long time and we as a people need to be prepared for American military casualties. The U.S. has invoked Article 5 of NATO, the first time since its formation. This requires member support of any action we take.
We need to be prepared to support our nation, just as our grandparents did during World War II. This is on the same scale as that!
I can’t help think that this reaction is all playing into some terrorist’s plot.
they poke at us with bombs at embassies & warships - “Moderate” responses. then they finally hurt us for real at the WTC. So we finally show up at their camps to fight back. Now we’re on their ground, where they’re even more adept. Now we’re willing to take casualties and fight on the ground. They’re overjoyed - they get to slaughter more evil Americans, without even having to leave home. All the while their cells are still operating on our soil.
We get stuck in a protracted ground operation. Our resolve flags after 18 months…unity dissolves. We commit more killing on their soil and breed more hate and terrorists. If you thought they were committed against us before, just wait.
they wanted to hurt us. they succeeded. they will succeed more at that.
complete victory? stop all of them. They’re so decentralized, I just don’t see it happening. And I do see endless new recruits to battle the foreign superpower occupying their homeland.
I’m not saying do nothing while they kill us. I’m saying I expect the world to be a very ugly place for at least a decade. And I don’t know if there’s an answer for that.
Audient - this will not take a decade. War also is a manner of economics. Yes these terrorist have access to financial resources today. But that will end to. Our GDP is bigger, we are stronger, we will outlast them in the long run. We will cut-off their supply of weapons.
We will win.
You will always have terrorism (for example, we have acts of terrorism in the US all the time - clinic bombings, Puerto Rican terrorists have been setting off bombs for decades, Unabomber, etc…). State sanctioned terrorism is the only kind that matters. If the terrorists do not have access to resources (money, time, training, safe harbors, population from which to recruit, etc…), they won’t be able to rise above the level of simple criminal activity.
The solution is to declare war on any country that supports any terrorist organization and then actually fight the war.
Wars in these countries could liberate the people from governments that they so far have not been able to overthrow.
Do you have any evidence that these governments are unpopular with their people?
We are all aware that this is not a fight against a single man or a single army, nor even a single nation or state- we are up against an idea, a belief. These extremist Muslims will NOT stop until either they are dead or we are all dead. That is a fact. If you look at from that perspective than what do you come up with? You realize that the only way to keep us on top is to destroy all trace of them and send a loud and clear message to those who would attempt more attacks- the US will not tolerate terrorism! We have pussy footed around for long enough, its time to go back to 40’s ideals and use all our current technological,psychological and military weaponry to defeat this foe. Personally I too see the US as big bullies and I can understand how these Muslims feel that we are evil, but since we are Americans and enjoy our lifestyles and freedoms we have no other choice but to do everything and I mean everything in our power to wipe these people out. Unfortunately the side effect of this will be descrimination against innocent Muslims. This is something that needs to be addressed and hopefully people will see that. There will be more attacks I suspect and more people will die on both sides, but there is no way around that. It is either them or us.This is world war III, make no mistake- it is a war against an unseen opponent. It is Vietnam in our own backyard. I expect the next 5-10 years will get very bad…but what can you do? This has been building up for years and years…it was bound to blow. Bin Laden is just the first step. I would imagine that following some bombing of his general area we will send in Spec Ops and they will dispatch him(after we pay someone or torture someone to tell us where he is). Get ready people, cause it isn’t gonna be pretty. I am sure there are tons of his cells opperating in the states, hell they were here for 2 years…thats plenty of time to set up operations. We will find them…its a matter of time. Anyone who gets in the way will be taken care of…I dont think Bush is playin around…he means business, and 40BILLION will buy lots of bombs and bullets…