But were the teachers checking the freak dancers’ underwear or were they checking all the girls’ underwear? (I’m assuming that not everyone dances like that, but correct me if I’m wrong) I got the impression it was the latter, and there could very well be girls who took umbrage at having their goods flashed. Even if people do like waving their bums at their dance partners, it doesn’t necessarily follow that they want their teachers seeing their panties! :eek:
For the most part, the girls who don’t dance like that stay home, but I agree that certainly there may have been girls who didn’t merit the “Undies Check” and so would have been justly offended.
To clarify, the girls don’t just wave their bums at their partners. The girls will often freak dance ALONE, which means sticking their asses up and humping the air. For a visual, just picture any one of the many videos on MTV or VH1 that show the girls doing it. Of course, as you pointed out, it’s NOT all girls, but it’s enough to make a school dance a painful event for chaperones.
Okay, I concede your point about the “freak” dancing, but now I have another bone to pick.
Some girls just don’t get asked to dance by boys. Life is unfair like that. But does it have to be unfair to the extent that they can’t dance at all unless Prince Charming rides up and asks for her hand?
I think - think! - by “girl-on-girl dancing” shrew by was referring to girls simulating same-sex contact while dancing. You know, dancing closely, groping each other and other such naughtiness.
Probably best if I refrain from giving my own opinions on this, umm, issue, no?
** Shrew,** I think I understand where you’re coming from in respect to the dancing, especially after further posts, and I am agreeing with most of it. I do have a question about this however :
Referring to sexually active teens above, I assume you’re generalising, and overstated your opinion. You don’t honestly believe that all sexually active teenage girls lack self-esteem, and all sexually active teenage guys think girls are only “fuckrags” and don’t respect them, do you ? I’m interested in your opinion, as a young teacher, on this matter.
What is wrong about a girl ‘showing muff’ (jaysis what a horrible expression that is!) anyway?
It is only bad if it makes their peers uncomfortable. The article hs not said anything about this. Is there a reasonably large percentage of students who oppose ‘freak’ dancing? Has anyone tried talking to the students as a whole? No, no, not AT them but TO them? If a teacher told the students that some of their fellow students were getting uncomfortable and that because of this ‘freak’ dancing was going to be outlawed would they really be self-centred enough to ignore them? Maybe. I dont know. But tellng them not to do it just because “I say so” is not going to get through to them. If the teacher’s beliefs on the subject are so good and reasonable then they should be able to stand up to rational discussion.
At my high school the principal used to address the school when ever there was some sort of contentious issue and he didn’t dictate terms to us. He talked to us and asked for feedback. Admitadly in a hall of several hundred people very few had the guts to stand up and question but some did and we all respecte each other the more for it. He was a truly great man.
But other than the possibility of making fellow students uncomfortable it just sounds like safe-sex to me. These girls’ bodies belong to them and if they want to parade around NAKED then that is their right. (And please dont anybody hit me with the legal angle of how their bodies dont really belong to them until they are 16/18/21 cause I dont have a response that I can cut down to less that an essay please? thanx 
Saying that they have no self-respect is just reducing self-respect to those criteria that you find appropriate. So girls are getting sexually aggresive for the first time in 5 thousand years HOORAY! It’s about bloody time!
The only problem I have with ‘freak’ dancing (and I must admit that I know nothing about it except what I have read on this list) is that it may make some of the students feel embarrased. This is a good reason for it to be toned down. But toning it down because you dont like it or because you feel they are too young is not a good enough reason. We are adults and as such we should be able to not put our feelings of disgust ahead of their enjoyment.
Is there a jaw drop smilie? Can we get on that?
Where do (did) you teach? In my 7 years of school dance experience (middle school thru college) I’ve never seen girls freaking by themselves. Normally their rears are up against a guy’s crotch, blocking any “muff.”
That’s when they freak. Most couples that I’ve noticed prefer to “grind” (close dancing with legs between legs. The dancers face each other “grind” like gears.).
My best friend (former SO) loves thongs. Something about them being more comfortable (
I don’t get it either). Anyway why should she get embarrassed for her choice in underwear? If you cast out a wide net you will catch plenty, but you might get some of the innocent too. She would “survive the embarrassment,” but it wouldn’t be the best for her self-esteem which apparently would make her a whore.
That’s it–it was a safety issue!
The school felt it was important to have the buns safely ensconced in sheer fabric rather than let the girls dance wildly, biscuits all akimbo, on the off chance that a renegade buttock or balistic thong strap might strike someone causing grievous bodily harm.
(On preview, the number of band names in that sentence equal at least three and maybe more.)
Narrad hit the nail on the head. I meant the same sexually explicit dancing, but this time with no boy involved. The girls are ON each other, groping. Remember, bisexuality is all the rage right now.
Yes, I overstated. I try so hard not to do that, but then I get impassioned and BAM, I do it. I do see the sexual behavior of teenage boys coloring their ability to respect women in general though. For example, in class a few months ago, we were discussing Gene’s betrayal of Finny in A Separate Peace. A girl said, “Well, it’s sort of like if you, Ms. Shrew, betrayed us by, um, having an affair with a student. We would be so shocked and betrayed, but we would still want to forgive you, ya know?” And a boy, a 15 year old boy, said, “Shoot. I’d be all up in that,” referring of course to having an affair with me. It was completely inappropriate and disrespectful to my position as a teacher. The male students who don’t know me often call me Shawty, Boo, and Folk when I pass by (although Folk isn’t strictly a sexual term, it’s not respectful either). While I may look young, I don’t look THAT young, and I dress as appropriately as possible without looking matronly. It’s simply the way many of the young men see women.
There are plenty of teenage girls who are sexually active and have self-esteem, but I have a hard time believing they’re the same girls freak dancing on boys they barely know. Sure, I’m imposing my own beliefs there, but that’s MHO.
I don’t know how to respond to this. Public nudity is pretty much outlawed everywhere in the States.
I would say, on average, only about 100 students show up to a dance, out of 800 - 1000 students in the whole school. For various reasons, the remaining students choose not to come. Certainly one of them is that they are uncomfortable and find the behavior deplorable. And no, I’m not assuming. I talk to my students, not at them.
“I say so” doesn’t get through to adults either. A teenager has to realize on his/her own that what she’s doing is wrong. No amount of preaching is going to work. I’ve certainly shared my beliefs with the kids regarding this behavior, and I think I make a pretty good argument, but how good does my argument have to be in order to stand up against all the offending videos on MTV and VH1? Pop culture is much to blame here, and I’m only one woman.
Again, I have no idea where you’re coming from. It is NO ONE’S right to parade around naked in public. Secondly, since when do we want teenagers having public orgies, even under the guise of “safe sex”, in the high school cafeteria?
This is IMHO, and certainly my judgments are based on my own criteria for right and wrong, but 14 and 15 year old girls do not need to be sexually aggressive! It’s not a good thing!!! If that makes no sense to you, then we have no common ground on which to debate.
Since I have been imbued by their parents and the state to act in their stead, then what I feel about their behavior IS important. And when I think they are too young for such behavior, the parents and state need to trust that as a professional who works with youth everyday and has dedicated her life to her students, that I have a leg to stand on.
And exactly why does being an adult mean putting my disgust ahead of their enjoyment? Teenagers aren’t the center of the universe, and maybe if we stopped treating them like they are, we’d see different behavior out of them.
I do want to say that I have many kids who do not take part in this behavior. They don’t freak dance, they don’t wear visible thong underwear, and they don’t associate with people who do. Many of them know sex is for adults. That’s why they call it “doin’ the grown folks” instead of “having sex”. I adore every single one of my students, bad behavior and all, but I’ll be damned if I’m going to sit silently when I see them behaving in a way that is reprehensible to me. I want them to respect themselves, and I have a hard time seeing this behavior in an empowering way. Last week, a boy left a note in my classroom. It was written by a girl in the class and basically said, “So where do you want to do it? My sister’s boyfriend said we could use his house. Who can resist you? If you need it, you need it. Oh, by the way, so-and-so said if I get you, she wants to hit so-and-so. Do you think that can be arranged?” For those of you not up on lingo, “hit” means to have sex with. Planning casual sex as if it were a dinner date. When I confronted the boy about the note, the conversation went as follows:
Me: Explain this to me. You’re 16. She’s 14. You could go to jail.
Him: Well, it hasn’t happened yet, so I guess I’m okay.
Me: You’re not even dating Susie*.
Him: Which one’s Susie?
Me: You don’t even know the two girls’ names? You’ve been in class with them all semester, and you were about to have sex with one of them!
Him: Man, I don’t know those girls!
I see no way in which this kind of behavior is empowering…unless you’re the boy getting free sex, no strings attached at the age of 16, and honestly that isn’t empowering to me either.
I teach in Georgia. Girls freak by themselves here all the time. Just watch any of the rap videos on MTV, and you’ll see this. They just stick their butts up in the air and shake like there’s no tomorrow.
Yeah, they do this too, which is pretty much tamer than what I’m talking about.
I’m assuming your former SO is an adult. There is nothing inherently wrong with thong underwear. I own several pairs myself. The issue is the exposure issue among teenage girls, whose parents expect us to monitor such things.
Shrew said:
"I don’t know how to respond to this. Public nudity is pretty much outlawed everywhere in the States. "
Fair enough. I dont expect teachers to hang around and ignore students who are breaking the law I just disagree with the law. Breaking a law within a school is clearly something that teachers must act on. Well said.
Shrew said:"I would say, on average, only about 100 students show up to a dance, out of 800 - 1000 students in the whole school. For various reasons, the remaining students choose not to come. Certainly one of them is that they are uncomfortable and find the behavior deplorable. "
K then I am definitely in favour of teachers banning it. Letting a few stundets get away with dominating the social events is clearly wrong. But surely if there is such an overwheliming majority there must be some way to get the students on your side? Or are they already?
"And no, I’m not assuming. I talk to my students, not at them. "
Glad to hear it! My mother and a good friend of mine are both teachers so I know from them that there are not enough teachers around who (like them and you) treat their students as intelligent and rational beings and not helpless, mindless unfortunates who need to be wrapped in metaphorical cotton wool in order to protect them.
Shrew said:"This is IMHO, and certainly my judgments are based on my own criteria for right and wrong, but 14 and 15 year old girls do not need to be sexually aggressive! It’s not a good thing!!! If that makes no sense to you, then we have no common ground on which to debate. "
Well I have to say that once again I agree with you. 14-15 is a bit young. Down here in ZA the age of consent is 16 which I personally believe to be perfectly fair. My views on sex are a bit complex but stick with me: I believe that sex should ideally be experienced between two people who have a genuine respect and love for each. However I also believe that this is not the kind of thing that someone can truly undertand until they experience it.
Some lucky people will have sex for the first time with someone they really love and stick with them forever. Good for them. I wish I’d had it that good. Unforunately most people will have to have a few pointless, unromantic relationships before they really get it. It is sad but these kids are going to have mindless sex with each other no matter what we do. Hopefully they will take as many precautions as possible and hopefully they will soon realize that something is missing and raise their standards.
Shrew said:"Teenagers aren’t the center of the universe, and maybe if we stopped treating them like they are, we’d see different behavior out of them. "
HUH? Sorry, you’ve lost me.
"Many of them know sex is for adults. "
I am afraid that I simply disagree. But wait. If we are talking about coital sex then I do mostly agree with you (see above) but if we are talking about the entire plethora of human sexual activities then I am afraid that I must disagree and I think that science (but not popular morality) is on my side. But this isnt really the thread for it. Maybe I should start one…
“I see no way in which this kind of behavior is empowering…unless you’re the boy getting free sex, no strings attached at the age of 16, and honestly that isn’t empowering to me either”
Well it isnt a very good kind of empowerment but at least girls arent feeling as ashamed of their sexual nature as in times past. We are all aware of the ‘stud/slut’ dichotomy and I take this as a suggestion that boys are finally reveling in their female counterpart’s right to desire. I know you will tell me if I am wrong. 
My point is that if these girls are choosing to have sex when and where THEY want to instead of being dictated to by circumstances, society, parents etc then that is a step forward. Obviously peer pressure is almost as bad. That will be the next step…
14 is still a bit young in my opinion but on the other hand I have a few female friends who had sex @ 14 and I do not respect them any less for it. It was their decision and they dealt with the consequences in as mature a way as they could.
"male students who don’t know me often call me Shawty, Boo, and Folk "
Ok I dont know what those terms mean. If they are demeaning then the boys responsible must be punished but if they arent then maybe they are just terms of affection? I seriously have no information to base this on. I am just asking.
I have to leave soon to go out of town for Mother’s Day, but allow me to address this as succinctly as possible.
Students will rarely turn on each other in order to side with a teacher. It’s called “punking out”.
A large problem in the states is that teenagers are treated as more important than adults. Look at the media. The vast majority of commercials, TV shows, etc. are aimed at teenagers, not adults. Many teens expect to drive nicer cars than their parents, have more money in their pockets than the average adult, and generally exceed the average adult in importance. The phrase, “You can’t tell me what to do. I have rights” gets uttered in response to such simple thngs as “Take your hat off inside.” To be completely honest, teens have very few rights in school. I can search a student’s backpack without any administrator present, and I’m completely covered by law. But I guarantee you, the first backpack I try to touch will be my last because if I don’t know the student, I might lose a hand.
I meant coital sex. The teenage years are certainly a time to get one’s feet wet in the world of romance, but coitus itself should really be reserved for later.
Sure the boys are revelling in it. Less persuasion required on their part. I don’t believe, however, that the girls are less ashamed. Too long to get into right now though.
I see your point. Choice is essential, and they are CHOOSING to have sex, wear the underwear, etc. Of course, I could go on all day about the hegemony involved, but I won’t.
Shawty and Boo refer to girls/boys with whom you’re flirting and/or “talking to”. “Talking to” can range from actual conversation to dating to having sex. When a student says, “I’ve been talking to him for 2 months”, I have to ask them to clarify. “Folk” is just a generic term for “People” or “bro”. It can be a term of affection, I suppose, but I’d rather the boys use my name.
I have to leave now, but I look forward to reading this when I return tomorrow.
I see. Sounds like a good way to get a bad back if you ask me. As horny high schooler drayton[sup]tm[/sup] I would grab a drink and enjoy the free show. As chap. drayton I would go around warning offenders saying, “Hey, I saw cleavage and it wasn’t your chest. Shape up or you’re gone.” Then again, I’m just armchair QBing here. I can understand and respect your position even more now, but please tell me that I’m being whooshed here:
I wish! Geez.
Fictional Party Conversation:
Drayton: Hey, Anna and Jen are dancing kind of close.
Tom: Do you think…
Drayton: Nah, unless…
Tom and Drayton: MORE DRINKS!
Five Drinks Later:
Drayton: Anything yet.
Tom: Yeah, Anna is in a corner with Steve and Jen is in another corner puking.
Drayton: Damn.
[sub]*This has been a fictional conversation. Not all girls make out with people and/or when drunk (though it improves chances).[/sub]
Then again, maybe its’ another regional thing, like the dancing. Have a safe trip. I can’t wait to hear your responses.
I’ve just read this entire discussion in great detail. Most people think my sexual views are quite odd, but I’ll lay them out here anyway. Feel free to criticize.
To me, at least, the need (NEED, not desire) for sexual satisfaction is just as strong as that for eating, drinking, breathing, and sleeping. Since I think sex is important, I am highly suspicious of anyone who thinks it’s not a necessity. They probably have mental problems.
Once a person hits puberty, I’d imagine that that’s when the natural need for sex will begin.
I don’t yet have any children, but I’d just as soon deprive them of water, then forbid them from having sex. Of course, they should have sex safely; I also wouldn’t tolerate stupidity in my children.
And, when you’re a teenager, is it really possible to achieve a deep, loving, long-lasting relationship that will lead to marriage? For many people it is, but not everyone. People will learn which is best for them, regardless of age.
My impression of all this is that grownups are seeing young people having a good time, and the basic rule of school, in my experience, is that good times are not allowed. The grownups are simply enforcing that rule; the school dance is required to be boring.
I remember, as a sophmore in high school around 1990, we had a newly mandated “health” class. The teacher mainly gave us a lot of propaganda about how bad sex was, and tried to teach us “refusal skills.” I wanted to say to the teacher: “Hey listen, I’ve been all around this school, and I’ve found PLENTY of refusal skills! How 'bout teaching some acceptance skills?”
P.S. Maybe when I have kids I should move to Shrew’s neighborhood; it seems like they’d enjoy it there.
Wow. Well all I can say after reading what goes on at a high school dance is …wow. People thought I was overreacting when I refused to allow my then 10-year-old daughter to go to a middle school dance. My feeling was that 5th and 6th grade is much to young to be encouraging “coupling”, or boy/girl interaction at all. I was told I was just a prude and I should lighten up. My argument was that if you are encouraging slow dancing at 10, then by 14 what will you have…now I know.
I strongly believe that schools should just get rid of dances if this is such a problem. But they will continue to sponsor them at younger and younger ages because it is a great way to make money.
Calliope, don’t be fooled into thinking that this happens at all all, most, or even a large minority of high school dances. Maybe it does. But I haven’t seen anything in this thread that would be evidence of that.
I think this thread would be better off in GD.
Late addition - re: ‘gee they choose to flash their butts/underwear while dancing, therefore the teacher checking it shouldn’t be a problem’.
Absolutely wrong. I may choose to wear something revealing, may dance enough to have my skirt flash up etc, and that, in no way ever gives some one else the permission to lift my skirt for their own purposes, especially in that sort of public setting.
My ass, my choice thank you.
So, each and every girl then that was examined was one of those who had been caught freaking?
:rolleyes:
I thought freaking meant someone comes up behind you, and the two of you sort of wiggle, move a bit, to the music…Not bending over and the like…of course, if they are, that’s not appropriate.
BUT…not ONE of those girls were caught freaking BEFORE they were inspected.
And what difference would it make if she wore granny panties or a thong while freaking? It’s still inappropriate!
And NO ONE is saying about a right to wear a thong! They’re saying I have the right to keep my panties as what they were meant to be ‘UNDER’ wear!
And as I keep saying, I would have turned around and mooned the bitch if she lifted up my skirt, just to show my disgust!*
*Okay, not really. I would simply refuse to allow her to lift my skirt, and called my folks for a ride home. Or did she even ASK before she lifted their skirts?
Also, I don’t agree that even if they chose to do so, it’s okay to flash the rest of the dance. C’mon, it’s a school dance, that’s not appropriate.
But if it’s unappropriate there, it’s ALSO unappropriate for the teacher to help them flash!
Sick sick sick. I can’t BELIEVE that woman is defending her actions like that.
Read the article. Sounds to me like some psycho lesbian pedophile getting her jollies at the expense of the female students attending the dance.
Look, part of our job as adults is to protect children from, well, themselves. This means imposing rules about their dress and behavior .
Soooo… it is reasonable to have a dress code, and send any student/dance attendee home who does not abide by said dress code. If it becomes apparent that a derriere is getting too much air, call the parents to come pick up the offender. If the dancing starts to too strongly resemble certain reproductive activities, the dancers should be warned, and, if they do not abide by the rules, sent home.
This is appropriate.
It is not appropriate for an adult of any gender to ask pubescent girls to lift their skirts in order to “make sure they’re wearing appropriate underwear”, or to remove their tops to check for a brassiere. I would classify this behavior as nothing less than deviant.
This brings back memories of my stepfather (who is a real piece of work) “checking the water level” of my bathwater… while I was in the tub. I was just getting toward puberty at the time.
Ah yes, that’s all we adults want to do…stop you from having a good time. Please. We want to stop you from getting pregnant at 15.
From having to start paying child support before you get your driver’s license.
From getting a sexually transmitted disease that might kill you, or give you cancer, or just eliminate any hope of a normal sex life in your future.
From getting yourself into situatuions where you might be assaulted, or injured, or killed by someone who takes you seriously when you offer up your body, but doesn’t listen when you get scared and say no.
From doing things that might get videotaped, or remembered, and come back to haunt you later in life when you’re trying to get a job, or elected, or be taken seriously.
Just spoiling all the fun, aren’t we.
Trying to keep you from spending any portion of your life depressed and scared and suicidal as a result of your youth and stupidity.
Trying to stop the sheer joy of a mother hearing her sweet, baby-faced 12 year old boy say he doesn’t want to be a virgin any more because the other boys in his 6th grade class make fun of him because he is one, and he isn’t some baby’s daddy yet. Three of the 12 -year-old boys in his class ARE daddys, and they are proud of it. Who here is having fun?
Shrew, you are wonderful. Keep believing in the kids who choose to live normal, sane, respectful lives. Not all teens have lost the ability to be a child. Not all parents have abandoned their children…some have had them seduced away from them, and they just can’t figure out how to save them.