Well…
I used to work with teens, in a psych hospital, and let me tell you, if an employee male or female, had asked to see a kids underwear without a pressing reason, they would have been hauled off in handcuffs. And we had a great deal more freedom with what we could do than a teacher. We regularly did suprise searches of rooms and personal belongings, physical restraint, etc.
But wether or not the teachers intentions were of a sexual nature, what she did was sexually inapropriate. This was not a case of someone making a simple mistake. A mistake is my spelling, if what she did was not deviant, what she did was show such extremely poor judgement that she is a lawsuit waiting to happen, and she needs to find a career where she can do no harm.
Seriously, such arogant and reckless disregard for the rights of her students is beneath contempt, even if she had the best of goals, and there wasnt a sexually related thought going through her head.
Thank you for that, Kayeby. I certainly believe the testimony of the police officer. I still don’t want to throw out the baby with the bathwater, but I’ll say again there’s no doubt in my mind she acted inappropriately.
While I will never understand how thongs can be comfortable natural :shudder:, I can certainly see your point of view. I would still argue that most teenagers wear them for exhibitionist purposes rather than comfort, but I suppose I could be wrong about that. So the undies themselves aren’t sexual, but rather the way in which they’re worn is.
I believe this illustrates what shrew is trying to say. There is more to this story than meets the eye. The statement from the police officer helped. Maybe he should have stepped in, but I’m not going to blame him for not doing so. If all that is done, is to fire this woman then the underlying problem will just get worse.
Good grief, people. This is a f----n news service, not even a newspaper. This is f----n Reuters, an international news service, who probably has trouble even spelling San Diego or Rancho Bernardo.
Without confirmation (a second source, perhaps), I wouldn’t even believe the pixels this story is printed on.
Good god there’s been some pile-on at shrew. Shrew - all support to everything you’ve said.
Christ, a school is (or should be) a controlled environment. It’s supposed to train and guide young people to adulthood. Not condone behaviour that is pretty much considered inappopriate at any age, outside of a private club.
Yes - maybe this teacher should have waited and quickly whipped the girls off the dance floor AFTER they offended. But wouldn’t that leave the school open to even more litigation by a parent suing them for failing to take enough preventative measures after their daughter’s muff got flashed to her entire peer group (and maybe ended up on the net?)
Certainly - any inspections should have been carried out in private solely by a female inspector, and IMO the school nurse.
The bras thing I also don’t agree with. I think it’s any woman’s personal choice whether she wears a bra or not. Breasts falling out of a dress - if the girl didn’t try to stop it - then in a school situation maybe she should be sent home. But having your breasts fall out of your dress (which has happened to the best of us is not in the same league as a deliberate split beaver).
On the whole though, I think any simulated sex between minors should be forbidden. As soon as obvious humping between teenagers takes the place of dancing, it should be stopped. It’s not a question of rights, or being modern, or letting kids follow fashionable trends, it’s a question of not condoning something that is illegal and immoral.
istara - i don’t think most of us are arguing that. i think we’d agree with you on all your points. we’re saying that the manner the teacher dealt with the problem was grossly inappropriate and that she should be severely reprimanded or fired from her position. the dancefloor antics are a-whole-nother
discussion…
or, see Guinastasia’s post for an eloquent summary.
pulykamell, I don’t doubt that something happened; I just doubt it was reported correctly. Hey, even the teacher said it was reported wrong.
As far as Rueters or wire services in general goes, I have nothing against them, however they are an international news service, hardly local, and prone to error; but then, even the locals sometimes get it wrong.
If it’s ever been your experience to find an event which you witnessed reported in the newspaper you’ll know what I mean. In my experience, most news reporters are there for the story first, and are not really concerned if it’s reported right or wrong, but YMMV.
Also, BTW, shrew I agree with most everything you’ve said. I applaud your dedication to your kids.
You know, that’s not how I meant it…I was pretty much just saying that, while some students would’ve lifted their skirts to get in (dances are very important to some), I would have told the teacher where to shove it. It was more a comment on my own bitchiness than on the whole “more than meets the eye” thing.
You don’t care about what? Getting the facts straight before casting judgment? Protecting the career, dignity, and reputation of someone who has not yet been proven guilty or who may have been acting out of duty? Looking at any argument from both sides even when it’s inconvenient to do so?
What is it you don’t care about?
I couldn’t agree more. Let’s say for just a moment that she was the only person in the school with enough balls to do something about the inappropriate behavior at the dance. If she gets fired, there’ll be nobody left. Again, while I don’t agree with what she did, I daresay that the problem isn’t so much that she forced the girls to show their undies, but that she dared to try to stop the guilty girls from showing theirs.
Thank you, istara, but I haven’t really felt piled upon. Most of the people in this thread have been very polite, even when they’ve disageed wholeheartedly with what I’ve said. But thanks for the support.
Thanks to philovance as well.
bup, if I had to venture a guess about the “safety issue” comment, I would guess that it’s because the lewd dancing and behavior often, but not always, leads to a mob mentality on the dance floor. Girls’ clothes have been ripped, people have gotten hurt, etc. I’ve broken up or been involved in more than my fair share of fights that started on the dance floor. The whole atmosphere at one of these dances is threatening. I went to one a year ago, and a boy who wasn’t a student followed me around for an hour asking me when I was going to dance with him. I told him repeatedly that I was a teacher. When he wouldn’t leave me alone, I had the school resource officer escort him out. Typically, we have anywhere from 2-5 police officers present at any dance, but they don’t get involved in the dancing. They’re only there in case of emergency.
Again, I could be wrong, but that would be my guess.
shrew, I’ve gotta say that you have impressed me with almost everything you’ve posted. You have stood your ground without being rigid, provided reasoned arguments for each point that can reasonably be argued, and have not hesitated to admit error. And I basically agree with you, although I think exposing kids’ underwear in public is an egregious violation that should carry some punishment with it.
Having said that…what in the name of Christ is a pubic-pusher?
I’ve seen it happen, especially when alcohol is involved (and it often is, at events like this).
Young gals often think they’re just being playful by flashing themselves at the boys. They don’t realize how quickly these things can turn into mob events where the girls’ clothes get ripped off – or worse.
Hyperelastic, thank you. Pubic Pushers are the really low-riding blue jeans that Britney Spears has popularized over the last year. They ride so low, a girl pretty much has to have waxed in order to not embarrass herself.
I think you’re being too hard-nosed, Guinastasia. Have you ever taught or been in involved with the care of teenagers? I’ve found myself on many occasions doing or saying things that in retrospect could have been seen as scandalous. One time, I jokingly referred to another teacher, a black woman, as Fred Sanford in front of the kids. I was just thinking because she was old and crotchety, but if she’d been offended, she could’ve had me fired. Luckily, she thought it was damn funny. Another time, I forced a girl to open her purse and show me that she had not just scored some weed in the bathroom. While the law was definitely on my side, she and her mother could’ve pushed the issue. My first year of teaching, I allowed two boys in my class to help me move into my new apartment. I had their parents’ permission, paid them generously, and bought them lunch, but looking back it wasn’t that smart…being somewhat ALONE with them all day. I shudder to think of the accusations they could have made if they had been maliciously-minded.
There is a constant struggle in dealing with children. You learn to care about your students as if they’re your own. In many instances, I’m much stricter with my kids than their parents are, and I’ve actually caught myself, in front of the children’s parents, rebuking them for something the parents don’t find fault with. I was out to dinner with one of my boys and his mother and two sisters a few weeks ago. I snapped at the 14 year old boy for pinching the waitress’ bottom and made him apologize. He did it out of respect for me, but his mother just looked on sort of shocked. As their caretaker, you take their problems home with you. You worry about them day in and day out, and I can only speak for myself, of course, but my kids take very high priority in my life. I go to sporting event after sporting event even though I hate sports. I go to banquet after banquet even though I hate mushy peas. And I spend hours before and afterschool helping kids who are struggling with either their grades or their lives. The struggle comes in letting go. They’re not my biological children, and they’re never going to be, but that doesn’t stop me from sometimes acting like a foolish parent who has just reached her wit’s end.
I realize this woman made a mistake, but when you love the people you’re trying to protect, sometimes you make mistakes because of zeal or general cluelessness about how to deal with something. I’m just not ready to throw the book at her. That’s all.
In 1984 my date and I went in handcuffs to the prom.
The previous year he wore a dress (his date - not me - wore a tux)
In 1985 we went again, this time as a threesome, me in bridal white, another girl in a absolutely trampy black dress. (The pictures are fantastic)
In 1985 there were at least three girl-girl couples at the prom - doing their best to shock.
(By the way, I never had sex with the gentleman in question - we were just friends out to shock. And I didn’t have self esteem issues, and he didn’t treat me like dirt. Protecting me from sexually transmitted diseases and pregnancy - well, I’d have to have been having sex. None of my friends who participated in this shocking behavior are anything other than suburban mini-van driving moms and wives (or dads and husbands) now. Just because I have photographic evidence that my husband kissed another man (I do, it looks like quite the kiss - also taken during the 1980s - bisexuality being all the rage) doesn’t mean they did it for anything other than shock value.)
Freaking may be new. The bi-sexuality and sexual overtones teens project aren’t.
Adding to shrew’s excelent post, I would like to mention that the number of “judgement calls” a teacher makes in a day is truly astounding. I’ve only done my student teaching and a semester of substituting, but in both those positions I was amazed by the shear volume of judgement calls I had to make: in a fifty minute period, you have to decide: whether Lisa is really having a bathroom emergency, what to do when Johnny has become completly non-responsive in the backrow, what to do about Rachel’s third crying jag this week, what make-up work you should assign to Tabetha who was out two weeks because of mother’s cancer, how to keep a hyperactive child who left his glasses at home and hence cannot read or do any other close work today busy, how to react to the fact that you just heard somebody call sombody a bitch but you are not sure who, and whether or not the interaction between the George and Lisa is flirting or sexual harrassment. And you have to make all these decisions with the knowledge that if you get one wrong everyone in the school, city, and in some cases the nation will delight in arm-chair quarterbacking it, not to mention the massive personal guilt you will suffer.
natural :shudder:, I can certainly see your point of view. I would still argue that most teenagers wear them for exhibitionist purposes rather than comfort, but I suppose I could be wrong about that. So the undies themselves aren’t sexual, but rather the way in which they’re worn is.
Just practicing for GD.