Those of you who think that branding the teabaggers as racist is premature...

[MTCicero]

@John_Mace

Why are you comparing this guy to a “liberal Dem” instead of just a “Dem”?

Oh, John Mace! You got me!

But fucking seriously. Howzabout addressing my actual point?

[John_Mace]

@AClockworkMelon

Why are you pointing out an unimportant redundancy and not addressing the heart of his statement?

I didn’t know that it was either unimportant or a redundancy.

So, I’ll rephrase with this new knowledge you have given me. If I can show a racist comment from a Democrat, can we assume that all liberal Democrats are racist?

[MTCicero]

@John_Mace

I didn’t know that it was either unimportant or a redundancy.

So, I’ll rephrase with this new knowledge you have given me. If I can show a racist comment from a Democrat, can we assume that all liberal Democrats are racist?

Of course not. But when you start to show me instance after instance of Democrat after Democrat doing same, and on top of that, you can point me in the direction of a multitude of YouTube links that show videos of Democrats at rallies holding up signs sporting racist slogans, and videos of Democrats shouting racial epithets at passersby, well, then I might just start to soften a bit more towards your stance.

I mean, it’s all about quantity, innit, John?

[John_Mace]

@MTCicero

Oh, John Mace! You got me!

But fucking seriously. Howzabout addressing my actual point?

Because your “point” moved the goalpost substantially from what I was asking. The OP is clearly painting with a broad brush. If you narrow the brush, it’s a different argument.

[AClockworkMelon]

@John_Mace

I didn’t know that it was either unimportant or a redundancy.

Don’t know what to tell you, John. It seemed really fucking obvious to me.

So, I’ll rephrase with this new knowledge you have given me. If I can show a racist comment from a Democrat, can we assume that all liberal Democrats are racist?

As I already said, I don’t think that’s fair evidence for that sort of generalization in either direction. I don’t think that this guy being an asshat racist makes conservatives racist. Not at all.

But in the quote of Cicero’s that you responded to, he was simply claiming that, over the course of time, they’ve created an environment where it’s not surprising at all to discover that a Tea Bagger is making racist statements, where it would be a touch more surprising to find a Democrat making those same statements. Yes, even a liberal Democrat.

[Kimstu]

@John Mace

I’m not sure what the OP is getting at. Are we supposed to draw conclusions about thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of people based on what this one guy did?

Certainly not, but this guy is far from the only example of teabagger racism, as I pointed out when citing various “Obama is a nigger” remarks from Tea Party supporter websites in a concurrent Pit thread.

I think what the OP is getting at is that there seems to be at present a tactical trend on the part of some conservatives to “stonewall” the racism issue in the Tea Party movement. Just categorically deny the existence of any taint of racism among Tea Partiers and simply claim that those damn liberals are lying about the whole thing. An extreme form of these tactics is proposed in this redstate.com blog post:

It was during Reagan’s time that the Left first began raising the notion of Republican racism. This was in part because so many southern Democrats began changing parties in that period, and southern Democrats were, well, you know, racists. […]

So, through the print media and television mostly, the message stuck: the Republican Party had become the new home of the old Dixie-crats and the plantation-seekers […]

While the Tea Parties were unplanned for, I’ve also told you before, the Enemy catches on pretty quick, and they are one-two steps ahead here again. […]

Now they have set into motion a large multi-tiered national assault on racism within the Tea Party Movement, and have tied that to the “tacit approval” of this racism of the GOP, both at RNC and in the Congress. All based on lies. Their near-term purpose is to 1) cause the GOP to run entirely away from the Tea Parties by hanging on them the one milestone they fear most and 2) turn public sentiment against the Tea Parties. They have all their forces marshaled for this one campaign, for if they win, they can once again be secure in an electoral victory in November. […]

Hire a full time response team to contact via email and letter EVERY offending party, from website to newspaper to television news show, that reports as fact any of these unsubstantiated charges are considered to be libelous and defamation and actionable at law. Don’t flood their email banks…yet. First send them an official letter that they have x hours to retract, not just take down, but retract, the charges,…or get a lawyer. We’ll find you. […]

The media will suddenly bury the charges and the racism campaign, but not before the last thing the public knows is not that the GOP/Tea Parties have been charged with racism, but that the media and several incorporate and private web sites and persons have been sued in court for race-baiting….and those cases are pending.

This guy is of course somewhat delusional with his visions of mass lawsuits against liberals and the media for any mention of teabaggers in association with racism. But his basic strategy of categorical denial irrespective of facts when it comes to racism accusations seems to have caught on with some conservatives (including our own Chessic Sense in the concurrent thread).

And yeah, I think the OP has a point that that strategy doesn’t really hold up against the facts. There are in fact numerous extreme and highly visible examples of racist wingnuttery among Tea Party supporters, and shouting “Oh yeah?!? No there aren’t! We deny it, and you’re just race-baiting!!” is not going to fool all of the people all of the time.

[John_Mace]

@MTCicero

Of course not. But when you start to show me instance after instance of Democrat after Democrat doing same, and on top of that, you can point me in the direction of a multitude of YouTube links that show videos of Democrats at rallies holding up signs sporting racist slogans, and videos of Democrats shouting racial epithets at passersby, well, then I might just start to soften a bit more towards your stance.

Well, the OP didn’t do that. And do you really think that there aren’t multiple examples of Democrats making racist comments? What’s the maximum allowable number of racist comments that a group gets to have and still get a pass at being labeled racist?

I mean, it’s all about quantity, innit, John?

No, it isn’t. Unless you can show that a sizable majority of a particular group is racist, then branding the entire group racist is simply incorrect. The OP branded the entire group of Tea Partiers as racist, based on the comments of one person.

[John_Mace]

@Kimstu

Certainly not, but this guy is far from the only example of teabagger racism, as I pointed out when citing various “Obama is a nigger” remarks from Tea Party supporter websites in a concurrent Pit thread.

I think what the OP is getting at is that there seems to be at present a tactical trend on the part of some conservatives to “stonewall” the racism issue in the Tea Party movement. Just categorically deny the existence of any taint of racism among Tea Partiers and simply claim that those damn liberals are lying about the whole thing. An extreme form of these tactics is proposed in this redstate.com blog post:

This guy is of course somewhat delusional with his visions of mass lawsuits against liberals and the media for any mention of teabaggers in association with racism. But his basic strategy of categorical denial irrespective of facts when it comes to racism accusations seems to have caught on with some conservatives (including our own Chessic Sense in the concurrent thread).

And yeah, I think the OP has a point that that strategy doesn’t really hold up against the facts. There are in fact numerous extreme and highly visible examples of racist wingnuttery among Tea Party supporters, and shouting “Oh yeah?!? No there aren’t! We deny it, and you’re just race-baiting!!” is not going to fool all of the people all of the time.

Well, you’re very generous, and that’s a much different and more nuanced argument than the OP is making. If you want to open another Pit thread with that thesis, then that might be a good thing.

For this thread, I’m just addressing what the OP has given us. I have no evidence that the OP is trying to say what you say he is trying to say.

[AClockworkMelon]

@John_Mace

Well, the OP didn’t do that. And do you really think that there aren’t multiple examples of Democrats making racist comments? What’s the maximum allowable number of racist comments that a group gets to have and still get a pass at being labeled racist?

When it enters the public consciousness that that is normal.

No, it isn’t. Unless you can show that a sizable majority of a particular group is racist, then branding the entire group racist is simply incorrect. The OP branded the entire group of Tea Partiers as racist, based on the comments of one person.

There is racial segregation in the south. Therefore everyone in the south is racist. There are more conservatives than liberals in the south. Therefore conservatives are racist.

Thank you! I’m here 'till Thursday.

[John_Mace]

@AClockworkMelon

When it enters the public consciousness that that is normal.

Assuming for the sake of argument that this is true, how do we measure that, and what measurement do we get for the the “public consciousness” regarding the Tea Party movement at present?

[Danimal]

Now here is what I don’t get. Obviously, a few tea partiers are racist. Every now and then, one of them breaks the taboo and says something obviously racist, like this guy, whereupon all his fellows flee from him like he just farted in a garden party. But why should we care so much about that particular irrational trait, which obviously only a minority of them have, when there is not the slightest doubt about their thousand other forms of irrationality? Why do we go hunting through the mass of idiotic birther propaganda, four-legs-good-two-legs-bad sloganeering, clinical paranoia, religious fanaticism and garden-variety lying, which the Tea Partiers flaunt openly in the face of the world, to find the minority who are also closet racists? It’s like scrutinizing a Nazi party rally full of brownshirts baying for Lebensraum at the top of their lungs, and making it your first worry how many of them are also secretly child molesters. Who cares? If not a single Tea Partier were a racist, the vast majority would still be batshit crazy and a cancer on political discourse.

[AClockworkMelon]

@John_Mace

Assuming for the sake of argument that this is true, how do we measure that, and what measurement do we get for the the “public consciousness” regarding the Tea Party movement at present?

It’s up to each person to decide. Frankly, whenever a conservative says something racist or sexist or whatever, I’m not surprised at all. It’s just gotten to the point for me where I’m starting to expect that that is indeed how most conservatives think and that most of them just aren’t saying it because they’re afraid of being labeled racists or whatever.

Is it fair for me to make that sort of generalization? Probably not. But, and maybe this is my cynical side talking, everyone seems to be full of shit. What’s the conservative flavor of shit? It’s constantly being shoved in my face that their flavor is racism, sexism, homophobia and religious fanaticism. Are these all unfair stereotypes of conservatives? Likely. But I’m constantly exposed to it. It’s unending. The guy mentioned in the OP isn’t the only Tea Bagger to show his true colors. He’s just the one singled out for the sake of the thread.

[AClockworkMelon]

@Danimal

Now here is what I don’t get. Obviously, a few tea partiers are racist. Every now and then, one of them breaks the taboo and says something obviously racist, like this guy, whereupon all his fellows flee from him like he just farted in a garden party. But why should we care so much about that particular irrational trait, which obviously only a minority of them have, when there is not the slightest doubt about their thousand other forms of irrationality? Why do we go hunting through the mass of idiotic birther propaganda, four-legs-good-two-legs-bad sloganeering, clinical paranoia, religious fanaticism and garden-variety lying, which the Tea Partiers flaunt openly in the face of the world, to find the minority who are also closet racists? It’s like scrutinizing a Nazi party rally full of brownshirts baying for Lebensraum at the top of their lungs, and making it your first worry how many of them are also secretly child molesters. Who cares? If not a single Tea Partier were a racist, the vast majority would still be batshit crazy and a cancer on political discourse.

You’re making a mistake if you’re thinking that this is the only bullshit that people are calling Tea Baggers on. They get called on whatever shit they get caught doing. It just so happens that they’re caught being racist a lot.

[John_Mace]

@AClockworkMelon

It’s up to each person to decide. Frankly, whenever a conservative says something racist or sexist or whatever, I’m not surprised at all. It’s just gotten to the point for me where I’m starting to expect that that is indeed how most conservatives think and that most of them just aren’t saying it because they’re afraid of being labeled racists or whatever.

It’s called confirmational bias. Extrapolating to “most conservatives” isn’t really much different than the behavior you’re condemning.

Is it fair for me to make that sort of generalization? Probably not. But, and maybe this is my cynical side talking, everyone seems to be full of shit. What’s the conservative flavor of shit? It’s constantly being shoved in my face that their flavor is racism, sexism, homophobia and religious fanaticism. Are these all unfair stereotypes of conservatives? Likely. But I’m constantly exposed to it. It’s unending. The guy mentioned in the OP isn’t the only Tea Bagger to show his true colors. He’s just the one singled out for the sake of the thread.

Well, he certainly deserves to the the subject of a Pit thread for racist comments. Extrapolating beyond that is, at best, intellectual laziness. At worst, it’s bigotry.

[AClockworkMelon]

@John_Mace

It’s called confirmational bias. Extrapolating to “most conservatives” isn’t really much different than the behavior you’re condemning.

You’re right, it’s likely that I’ll more easily see racism coming from conservatives. But Jesus Christ, there’s a lot of it.

Well, he certainly deserves to the the subject of a Pit thread for racist comments. Extrapolating beyond that is, at best, intellectual laziness. At worst, it’s bigotry.

I’d say that this guy, as well as the Tea Baggers shouting “nigger” at Obama, are just symptoms of a racist culture within the conservative movement. Give me a minute to go interview every single conservative in the United States, ask them if they’re racist, use my magic wand to check if they’re lying and get right back to you.

[John_Mace]

@AClockworkMelon

You’re right, it’s likely that I’ll more easily see racism coming from conservatives. But Jesus Christ, there’s a lot of it.

I’d say that this guy, as well as the Tea Baggers shouting “nigger” at Obama, are just symptoms of a racist culture within the conservative movement. Give me a minute to go interview every single conservative in the United States, ask them if they’re racist, use my magic wand to check if they’re lying and get right back to you.

Alternatively, you could address individual acts of racism, and not try to play a trump card against an entire group of people with whom you disagree, politically. And then you could address the specifics of the political argument you have, and if they really are racist, then let them hang themselves with the rope you give them.

Name calling doesn’t win arguments.

[Kimstu]

@John Mace

Well, you’re very generous, and that’s a much different and more nuanced argument than the OP is making. If you want to open another Pit thread with that thesis, then that might be a good thing.

You’re kind to say so, but I wouldn’t dream of exposing my nuance in a Pit OP. If I can sneak a little nuance into an obscure post or two later in the thread, that’s as much as I’ll venture to attempt.

But as long as I’m already being nuanced here, I will say that I agree with you that people shouldn’t be making categorical dertrihsish generalizations along the lines of “Tea Partiers are racist”, much less “Republicans are racist” or “Conservatives are racist”. I think it’s quite fair to point out that there’s a distinct racist streak in the Tea Party movement, but it’s not fair to suggest that all Tea Party supporters are racist or that the movement as a whole (if it even has a whole) is racist.

Still, the racist ones do have to take some of the blame for tarnishing the image of their movement, and the non-racist ones have to be pro-active about rejecting racist supporters (as the Republicans mentioned in the OP’s link did seem to be doing). Over-generalized accusations of racism by liberals may be a convenient scapegoat, but they’re not the root of the problem.

[John_Mace]

@Kimstu

You’re kind to say so, but I wouldn’t dream of exposing my nuance in a Pit OP. If I can sneak a little nuance into an obscure post or two later in the thread, that’s as much as I’ll venture to attempt.

I had originally thought of suggesting a GD thread, if that makes any difference.

But as long as I’m already being nuanced here, I will say that I agree with you that people shouldn’t be making categorical dertrihsish generalizations along the lines of “Tea Partiers are racist”, much less “Republicans are racist” or “Conservatives are racist”. I think it’s quite fair to point out that there’s a distinct racist streak in the Tea Party movement, but it’s not fair to suggest that all Tea Party supporters are racist or that the movement as a whole (if it even has a whole) is racist.

I would readily agree that there is a disturbing undercurrent of racism in the Tea Party Movement, as evidenced by polling on the subject.

Still, the racist ones do have to take some of the blame for tarnishing the image of their movement, and the non-racist ones have to be pro-active about rejecting racist supporters (as the Republicans mentioned in the OP’s link did seem to be doing). Over-generalized accusations of racism by liberals may be a convenient scapegoat, but they’re not the root of the problem.

I don’t worry too much about that. Maybe it’s just a matter of opinion, but in this day and age with everything anyone says instantly available on YouTube, it just takes too much energy to “proactively” denounce all the wingnuts. Just don’t support them.

[AClockworkMelon]

@John_Mace

Alternatively, you could address individual acts of racism, and not try to play a trump card against an entire group of people with whom you disagree, politically. And then you could address the specifics of the political argument you have, and if they really are racist, then let them hang themselves with the rope you give them.

Name calling doesn’t win arguments.

Nope, but it’s just so fucking fun.

And before you go calling all Democrats childish because I’m one, I’ll have you know that I’m not!

[BigT]

@AClockworkMelon

When it enters the public consciousness that that is normal.

There is racial segregation in the south. Therefore everyone in the south is racist. There are more conservatives than liberals in the south. Therefore conservatives are racist.

Thank you! I’m here 'till Thursday.

You either need to work on your material or your logic.