Those Wacky Mormons and rebaptising (Not a repeat...its a whole new can of worms)

[Siege]

OK, I’ll give it one last shot. EMarkp, based on what you’ve posted, I take it then, that you wouldn’t mind if, next time my Episcopal Church has a baptism, I include your great-grandmother and have her baptized an Episcopalian and made a member of the Episcopal Church?

I don’t want to be a Mormon. Neither do my mother, my father, my siblings or, as far as I know, any of my ancestors. Speaking for myself, I also don’t want to be Catholic, Baptist, or 7th Day Adventist, among others, so please don’t feel singled out. Among other things, I have enough trouble with the various noun and adjective forms describing members of the Episcopal Church and the convolutions I’ve had to go through to describe members of your church, only to get criticized yet again for not getting it perfectly right ain’t helping your cause any. Up until, now, I’ve avoided the short form used to describe members of your church out of that respect you disdain.

You say it is a choice, but, unless I’ve misread, it’s a choice offered after the baptism has been imposed upon me. Let me offer up an analogy. I was feeling stressed one day and an acquaintance of mine offered me shiatsu massage out of what I assume was a sincere belief that it would relax me and ease my stress. I refused. He then took my hand and started doing shiatsu massage on it. The net result was his insistence on imposing his will on me for my own good only increased my stress, made me angry, and resulted in him remaining no more than an acquaintance. Certain traits appear to be intrinsic to my nature, including a certain degree of stubbornness, contrariness, and an unwillingness to accept arguments based on authority alone (“Because I said so” is about the worst argument you can use on me). I suspect an entity which did not possess those traits would be so far removed from who I am as to not be me in any recognizable way. She might even write short sentences! Given those characteristics, just as that person’s attempt to relax me and get me to like him better blew up in his face, so I believe that an attempt to shove me closer to God by the imposition of someone else’s will is likely to have the net result of driving me further from Him and alienate me from the person or persons who are doing the shoving.

Can’t you see that you are reducing the appeal of your form of Christianity? Granted I’m not in a great hurry to leave the Episcopal Church, despite our current circumstances, but you’re advocating something which I strongly dislike to put it mildly. To put it more bluntly, what part of “Leave me alone” don’t you understand?!

Respectfully, somehow,
CJ

[Princhester]

Couldn’t we just resolve this whole situation by getting the dead to tell us whether they mind or not? I mean, we for once have a good use for John Edward and Silvia whatshername, lets get 'em involved.

[sub]But if JE contacts my paternal grandfather and he says he doesn’t mind the Mormons baptising him, he’s a fake for sure![/sub]

[Shayna]

*Originally posted by emarkp *

Holocaust victim: Someone persecuted for his/her faith/heritage. I should offer them this gift, since they suffered so much.

This is not a gift to us, you self-centered, egostical jerk. Don’t you DARE try to tell us in our death that we were wrong for what we died defending.

FUCK YOU!!!

[NTChrist]

*Originally posted by emarkp *
**What is it disrespectful about “Come, and see”?

Is it disrespecful to say, essentially, “This is what I believe. Would you like to hear more?” **

Wow, sounds like you go door-to-door, even after we’re dead! There’s no escape?

[Princhester]

NTChrist seems to me to get to the point. An opportunity to decline this post-mortem baptism, does not this right.

The same BS argument is used by junk mailers: “we are only providing you with information, you can always decline our offers”

I’m not religious and believe once you are dead, you are dead. But if I did believe in the afterlife, I wouldn’t be too happy about a church that spammed my dearly departeds.

[CarnalK]

Am I missing something? It’s claimed that the baptism is merely offered up to the dead for acceptance but the names are put directly into the church register as passed on Mormons(obviously without confirmation of acceptance) ie the church assumes everyone accepted?

[Guinastasia]

No, they just note that there was a ceremony done for so and so. Separate from the member rolls, I would imagine.

Either way, I still don’t like it.

It’s especially insulting when done for people who died as martyrs. (and no, I’m not bringing up Radkey-I’m saying that to do even a proxy baptism for someone who died defending their faith is insulting and disrespectful.)

[Drastic]

So how would the Mormons here feel about the Catholic church baptizing dead Mormons?

[General Turgidson]
We must not allow a baptism gap!
[/General Turgidson]

[emarkp]

*Originally posted by Guinastasia *
If someone specifically REJECTED the LDS church in life, what would make them change their minds at death?

No one has claimed that anyone will change his mind at death. Now, to extend your question: what would make someone change his mind after death? The same thing that makes people change their minds in life I suppose. Scroll up on this page and you’ll see that I met and taught and baptized people who said they’d always been Catholic and always would be Catholic. One of the young men I served with as a missionary told me how his parents turned the LDS missionaries away five times, but then on the sixth time they invited them in.

What changed their minds?

Furthermore, the people who have heard of LDS (or even of Christ) are a very small minority. The bulk of the people we’re talking about could not have rejected the LDS church in life, because it hadn’t been restored in their lifetime, or they hadn’t heard about it. On top of that we have people on this very message board who show up in LDS threads claiming to be knowledgeable about Mormons but keep getting things wrong. How many people who’ve rejected us had accurate information? A much smaller minority.

I mean, why not just baptize BY PROXY everyone on earth, and then have it done?

You don’t seem to understand the distinction between people being baptized for themselves and proxy baptisms. They’re similar but not the same. Is the distinction not clear? Or do you refuse to accept there is a difference?

To me, it just seems very patronizing.

Do you find all missionary work patronizing? Do you object fundamentally to the idea of my inviting others to hear what I believe?

The point is, someone says, “I am already rejecting it NOW.”

I have already stated examples of people who have said “I reject it now” who have changed their minds. Do you understand that people can in fact change their minds? That they do so even after stating things with the same vehemence as you are now?

Okay, I am going on record as saying that I do not wish a baptism by proxy when I shuffle off of this mortal coil. Got that, Dopers? No offense to LDS, but I do not believe in it-if I did, I would be a Mormon, obviously.

I don’t even know you. I wouldn’t even know your real name if I happened upon it, and since you’re not in my family tree (as far as I know :)) it’s not exactly a priority for me. If you feel so adamantly about it, write it down, and be sure to tell your closest relatives. Keep a record and make sure your wishes are clear.

Or (or perhaps in addition to the above) if two guys come up to you after you’re dead and talk to you about LDS principles, just tell them you’re not interested.

I mean, if I were going to be a Mormon, I would do so.

Perhaps that’s true in your case. Can you say it’s so in every person’s case? Here I am being criticized because we believe in offering what we have to everyone–the critics deciding for everyone who has ever lived that it’s somehow disrespectful to offer that. Who’s making the arrogant claims? Who is presuming to make choices for others?

Considering how important you feel it is for you to make this choice, I’d be interested in your feelings about infant baptism.

[emarkp]

*Originally posted by Siege *
OK, I’ll give it one last shot. emarkp, based on what you’ve posted, I take it then, that you wouldn’t mind if, next time my Episcopal Church has a baptism, I include your great-grandmother and have her baptized an Episcopalian and made a member of the Episcopal Church?

I keep repeating that the proxy ordinance does not make anyone anything against his will. A record is kept that the proxy ordinance was made. That’s it. No one is being baptized “into” any church.

That being said, my great-grandmother was (and likely still is) capable of taking care of herself (and was a pretty decent shot with a rifle I might add). You’re welcome to invite her to whatever you wish.

I don’t want to be a Mormon. Neither do my mother, my father, my siblings

Fine and dandy.

or, as far as I know, any of my ancestors.

Now wait a moment here. Do you have any idea how many ancestors you have? Granted, this can be parsed more than one way–I find it quite believeable that you have no evidence of your ancestors noting “please make sure we’re Mormons when you get the chance.” However, are you also sure that all of them would turn down the offer if it were made? It is entirely reasonable for you to speak for yourself. It is another thing entirely to speak for others, especially others who you have never known.

Again I see quite the juxtaposition. I don’t presume to know what the departed wish. I merely want to offer them what I have found, knowing they are free to accept or reject it. Others (you included) seem to feel that it is necessary to decide for them, or that they are incapable of deciding for themselves.

Which shows more respect?

In my experience I have met many people who make decisions for others about their religions. I have known people whose families made their lives a living hell because of religious differences. I have little respect for those people.

Among other things, I have enough trouble with the various noun and adjective forms

I specifically pointed out that I was not criticizing you. I specifically said that I knew that you meant no disrespect. For the record, IMO you’re welcome to use “Mormon”, LDS, and the full name of the LDS church howevever you like, and you’ll get no criticism from me.

You say it is a choice, but, unless I’ve misread, it’s a choice offered after the baptism has been imposed upon me.

You’ve misread. I don’t know how I’ve been unclear, but this is flatly incorrect.

Let me offer up an analogy.

It’s a faulty analogy. The person contravened your free will, and presumed to know you better than you know yourself.

Those who perform proxy ordinances do not presume to know better than the departed, nor do they contravene free will. They make the offer, with the understanding that they can be turned down. We do not believe that we can (or should attempt to) compel conversion.

The proxy ordinance work is analogous to the offer, not ignoring the decling of the offer. Again, we currently have no reliable way to know the wishes of the departed–and we believe the spirit is concious and lucid after death, still able to make choices just as we are now.

so I believe that an attempt to shove me closer to God by the imposition of someone else’s will is likely to have the net result of driving me further from Him and alienate me from the person or persons who are doing the shoving.

You keep asserting that we are making some sort of imposition. You’re making a stronger claim about our belief than we believe.

Tell me, how do you feel about Christ suffering for your sins? Did he impose that on you?

How should an atheist feel when he is told that Christ died for his sins? Did Christ impose that on him?

To put it more bluntly, what part of “Leave me alone” don’t you understand?!

At no point have I offered to do any proxy work for you Siege. You haven’t said “Leave me alone.” If I were to come to your door, knock and present my belief, and you were to say “leave me alone”, my response would be to thank you for your time and go my way.

But I have repeatedly mentioned examples of people who were just as adamant as you are that they would never change, yet who are now happy Mormons. And to make sure there’s no ambiguity, they’re alive. They said over and over again “leave me alone.” But then, for some reason, they said something else.

What do you say about them? Would you deny them their happiness so that they weren’t somehow disrespected? Is all missionary effort disrespectful?

[emarkp]

*Originally posted by Guinastasia *
Either way, I still don’t like it.

And you still haven’t said why. Do you dislike it even when nothing is known at all about the religious beliefs of a person?

It’s especially insulting when done for people who died as martyrs. (… I’m saying that to do even a proxy baptism for someone who died defending their faith is insulting and disrespectful.)

Very important question: would you feel it insulting and disrespectful to attempt to proselytize someone who had suffered nearly to the point of death for their faith? If a Jew had been permanently crippled because he was a Jew–if he’d been only able to cling to life by asking passers-by for their assistance, and all this because he would not deny the Torah-- would it have been disrespecful for Peter to have said, “Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee”?

[kferr]

Is there a do-not-call list for the afterlife I can get on?

[vanilla]

*Originally posted by emarkp *
**

yet who are now happy Mormons.

What do you say about them? Would you deny them their happiness so that they weren’t somehow disrespected? **

If they died as Christians, then they

are happy. You can be happy after death even if youre not a Mormon; hard to believe, i know.

Excellent thread, by the way.
Keep it up good people.

[spectrum]

*Originally posted by emarkp *
No one has claimed that anyone will change his mind at death. Now, to extend your question: what would make someone change his mind after death?

Nothing. It’s too late after you die.

Furthermore, the people who have heard of LDS (or even of Christ) are a very small minority.

Some people have all the luck.

The bulk of the people we’re talking about could not have rejected the LDS church in life, because it hadn’t been restored in their lifetime, or they hadn’t heard about it.

You misspelled “concocted.”

Do you find all missionary work patronizing?

I, for one, do. Everyone should leave everyone alone. It should be legal to shoot proselytizers who step onto my property.

If you feel so adamantly about it, write it down, and be sure to tell your closest relatives. Keep a record and make sure your wishes are clear.

So we’re supposed to believe that an organization that shamelessly spiritually rapes the dead will care if in my will, in big bold letters, I put:

"I HATE THE MORMON FUCKING CHURCH AND ALL ITS STUPID MADE UP DOCTRINES AND DO NOT EVER WISH TO HAVE MY NAME DIRTIED AND DEFAMED BY THEIR ATROCIOUS ‘BAPTISMS FOR THE DEAD!’"

Somehow, I doubt that the church would give a damn about my wishes.

[alice_in_wonderland]

So, let me see if I’ve got this straight.

It’s not enough that I have to deal with unsolicited attempts to convert me to mormonism in life, now I have to deal with this shit in death as well.

Well thats just spec-fucking-tacular. :mad:

[dropzone]

*Originally posted by emarkp *
If you’re going to use the full name of the church (instead of simply ‘Mormon’) I’d be grateful if you didn’t drop Christ out of it.

Aren’t any of you theological types going to touch this one? I mean, HE JUST LOBBED IT AT YOU!

[DaveX]

Well, this explains the claim that they are the fastest growing religion…

Like a crooked election, just start adding dead people to your roll call…

[Siege]

So, emarkp, would you consider joining the Episcopal Church (substitute “Anglican Communion” if outside the U.S.)?

[Guinastasia]

emarkp, I’ve told you why I don’t like it. If that’s not good enough for you, tough shit.

[Jackmannii]

*Originally posted by emarkp *
Furthermore, the people who have heard of LDS (or even of Christ) are a very small minority.

I think you underestimate the power of advertising.**

Do you find all missionary work patronizing?**

Yes, in addition to arrogant and disrespectful.

“What if they’ve been dead for so long that they’re only bones? Or worse, if they haven’t decomposed all the way and they’re still, ahem, in that transitionary phase? What if there are pieces missing?”

Can’t be, fetus is still alive.

fetus?