"Those who play the identity politics game..."

Great Debates
201

Of course not. Why would greeting me in Maori and Samoan be offensive?

New Zealand is indeed a bi-cultural society, but I grew up in the South Island where Maori culture was considerably less present. At school, the national anthem was sung in English, and if the Maori version was sung (very, very rarely) it was second. I’ve can’t recall ever experiencing a powhiri, or attending a meeting commenced with Karakia. I do remember seeing the school rugby team performing the haka, though.

Most of my exposure to Maori culture was as this other “thing” that was only found elsewhere or done for tourists - perhaps much in the same way someone living in Saskatchewan is aware there’s a lot of French culture and language in Quebec, but they don’t really interact with anyone from Quebec much so it’s all pretty theoretical to them.

For what it’s worth, I do have a great deal of respect for Maori culture - there’s a long tradition of honour, respect, innovation, and responsibility there. When the British showed up, the Maori negotiated for a fair deal and when they didn’t get it, they took up arms, learned how to use them, and successfully fought the British to get what they wanted.

The Maori friends I’ve had over the years have been hardworking upstanding people as well as great friends.

I’m genuinely glad of those things too. Everyone should be proud of their heritage and accomplishments, regardless of where they are from or what they have done.

Whereas I can’t fathom honouring the traditional owners of land when they haven’t lived there for more than 150 years, especially if you’re not one of the traditional ownership groups yourself and your audience doesn’t visibly contain members of that group.

A friend of mine was a journalist and commented several times on their inability to find anyone descended from the local area’s tribe.

For the record, I fully support gay marriage and the fact Australia can’t get its shit together and implement it is a great disappointment to me. Similarly, I abhor the country’s practice of locking people up in detention camps for trying to claim refugee status here.

But yeah, if NZ was so great I wouldn’t have left. I didn’t hate living there but I’ve visited a few times since crossing the ditch and I’ve no strong desire to move back.

202

…why would “I’d like to acknowledge the traditional owners of this land” offend you?

The Maori verse of the national anthem is now nearly universally sung first, and it is now taught in schools as standard. I’ve been to two powhiri last year alone.

What is your opinion of Aboriginal Australian culture?

And you will be happy to hear that most of the white people I know have been hardworking upstanding people too.

What is your opinion of your Aboriginal Australian friends?

“Visibly?”

So just to be absolutely clear here: there weren’t any “black people” in the room, so you assumed that there weren’t any descendants of traditional owners of the land in the room?

Don’t you think that…to be brutally honest: don’t you think that this is just a bit fucking sad? That a journalist can’t find anyone descended from the local area’s tribe in your area?

Where did they all go?

What did you think of the spontaneous waiata that dominated that video? At Parliament? What did you think of the Members of Parliament who joined in the singing?

Well I’m glad you found somewhere that was not so “politically correct” for you to live.

203

Because it’s not their land anymore, hasn’t been for a really, really long time, and the only reason to “acknowledge the traditional owners” is, IMHO, virtue signalling nonsense designed to generate warm fuzzies with the “right on” crowd.

Also, Maori and Samoan are actual, living languages which people speak. Saying “Kia ora” is no different to me saying “G’day” or “Alright, then?”. It’s a totally different kettle of fish.

I really don’t know enough about it to have a comprehensively informed opinion on the subject. I don’t know any Aborigines, none of my colleagues are Aboriginal, and the relatively few Aborigines I’ve interacted with over the years have, like all other groups of people, covered the gamut from “Asking me for spare change or smokes” through to “Respected community leader and spokesperson”.

No, not really. Australia’s a big place and Aborigines make up something like 2% of the population. It doesn’t strike me as unusual a journalist couldn’t find anyone descended from the local area’s tribe. Obviously there’s people from the wider tribal family/language group about, though.

It’s not the sort of conduct I’d expect in parliament but it’s momentous occasion and they’re not hurting anyone. Maori culture is a bigger part of NZ culture and even though it’s not something I personally identify with, lots of people do.

Are you seeking to understand my point of view or gather ammunition so you can denounce me as a racist?

204

Sorry, but that’s nonsense. You can’t be guilty of something you haven’t done. **I **haven’t gained an advantage at the expense of others by being white, there’s nothing I can do to achieve that, and nothing I can do to stop benefiting from being white in America.

So, you’re ignoring the legitimate conversation about the march, in favor of focusing entirely on one Facebook post about another topic (exactly what, we don’t even know, because we got it secondhand). That’s nutpicking defined, and it contributes nothing to discussion. It’s the same as people screaming about Communists in the civil rights movement 50 years ago.

I won’t attempt any hypotheticals, then.

205

We’re just discussing the fine points of tone and etiquette now; I agree that people shouldn’t act in assholish ways. I’ve never heard it used in an assholish way, but I don’t doubt that it has been, just as you shouldn’t doubt that it’s been used in non-assholish ways. It’s a big country.

How so? If a person looks white (no matter their actual heritage), they’ll enjoy the privilege that being white brings in America. It’s not something you can opt out of, either.

Now, you of course shouldn’t assume that a white or white-looking person is otherwise privileged, powerful, or anything else…but surely you can assume that they are, in fact, white-looking?

206

I’ll single this out (just the first phrase) for disagreement since I think we’ve mostly been on the same page in this thread. There’s no way, most likely, that you could know for sure whether or not you’ve “gained an advantage at the expense of others” due to your whiteness. It’s entirely possible that you got a job, or a spot at a school, or some other benefit, due to connections (familial and/or friend/business acquaintances) having to do with race (if you were black you’d probably be less likely to be friends/family with people with beneficial connections and influence), that otherwise might have gone to an equally or more qualified minority. It’s very possible that you’ve been in situations that, had you been black, would have resulted in unfair treatment by law enforcement, or had you been a woman, would have resulted in sexual harassment or worse.

It’s not something to feel guilty about, IMO, but it might be true.

207

Allow me to clarify:

I was objecting to the phrasing, not the concept that my whiteness puts me at an advantage, which it likely has. “Gained” is a verb, and thus implies that I did something to acquire an advantage at the expense of others, as opposed to being born with chromosomes for light skin, in a society that privileges light skin.

Since the context was guilt, it’s important to make that distinction: as I controlled neither where I was born nor the genes I was born with, there is no guilt that attaches to my white privilege. Guilt remains immaterial to the concept, a red herring.

208

Thank you for your answers on this. I guess, because I find your reaction to this kind of thing so different from mine, I’m just trying to see if I can understand it. At the end of the day I suppose the important question is; what is the cost of people being turned off by something like this? In an election situation with two equally reasonable candidates, perhaps not much at all. With more varied candidates, or in another situation such as signally support for a law or personal aid to a cause, it might be more significant.

It still seems odd to me. I’m really not sure what a reasonable, knowledgeable candidate could say to me to so immediately turn them off voting for them.

209

For what it’s worth, an otherwise knowledgeable, reasonable candidate who stands up and says “I’d like to thank God” or something along those lines would also likely lose my vote too - not for being religious, but because it’s something that needs to stay out of politics.

210

I think you might be missing my point. In the sixties there were segregated schools, swimming pools and drinking fountains.

The greatest difference in privilege today isn’t race, but wealth.

Nobody can argue ther are no problems. But which are the most acute? Which need most desperately to be improved?

211

I’m fine with trying to make a fairer and more equal society in all ways, including wealth (which doesn’t necessarily mean I advocate for all wealth redistribution policies), but I think privilege based on immutable characteristics like race, gender, sexual orientation, gender ID, and the like, is still very significant, and fundamentally different in nature than the privilege that comes from wealth.

I don’t think comparing privilege from wealth to privilege from these other characteristics is useful.

I don’t know if there’s a single problem that’s “most acute” or “most desperately” needs improvement. I think this thread has mostly been about privilege related to race, gender, etc., which I do think is a very serious and significant issue in society.

212

…well it is their land. They are Australian, just like you, are they not? Is it not your land as well?

What if a pakeha says “Kia ora?”

Is it something that you think might be a good thing to learn? You say of Maori culture: “There’s a long tradition of honour, respect, innovation, and responsibility there.” Do you not think that Aboriginal Australian culture has that same tradition? Is the first thing you think of when you hear “Aboriginal Australian culture” really going to be someone asking you for spare change or smokes?

What is the name of your local area tribe? What language do they speak? Where did they go?

Would Australia be enriched or worsened if Aboriginal culture were to become more important in Australian society?

I’m asking questions in an attempt to understand your point of view. You don’t have to answer them. LinusK has chosen not to answer my questions. You are welcome to do the same.

213

I’d like to comment on this - if I went to a meet-the-candidates event and one candidate had Australian flags plastered all over their gear, I’d probably feel a bit … uptight about that. Maybe even suspicious. Despite the fact that I quite like being Australian and enjoy living here - but flags, IMO, are right-wing virtue signalling. People on the left don’t generally fly flags - people on the right do. And if someone’s on the right of politics, probably I’m not going to agree with them very much, and quite likely get rapidly annoyed at things they’re likely to say.

So would you agree that the problem with country-acknowledgement might not be so much that’s it’s “virtue signalling”, but that it’s virtue signalling from the wrong side of politics?

214

No, it’s not my land. It belongs to the current owners, whoever that is (as in, whoever purchased the land and/or pays the mortgage on it and/or owns it outright).

Personally, I find the term “Pakeha” extremely offensive. And I’d think a European NZer who went around saying “Kia Ora” unironically to people a lot to be a bit of a tosser, but I wouldn’t tell them that.

My first impressions of Aboriginal Culture are the Dreamtime Myths, followed by painted folks playing didgeridoos and other traditional arts.

I don’t know if it would be either, to be honest. What does Aboriginal culture bring to the table? I don’t know enough about it to give a definitive answer. I do know there were some of them effectively living in the stone age until basically the early 20th century in some places.

I’m happy to have a respectful and civilised discussion with you in the interests of understanding the other’s point of view. :slight_smile:

Oh, I’d be seriously put off by huge numbers of Australian flags everywhere too. That’s as big a red flag for me (excuse the pun) as acknowledging the traditional owners or praising your preferred deity.

Here’s the thing though: No-one of the right-hand side of politics has ever blamed me for being the cause of the country’s problems, said I should feel bad and apologise for things other people’s ancestors did centuries ago, accused me of being part of some oppressive patriarchy or told me to “check my privilege” etc.

It’s just a shame so many on the right-hand side of politics have such terrible views about The Wrong Kind Of Foreigners, poor people, and similar issues.

215

Leaving aside other aspects of this post, it’s worth noting that there’s a philosophical question here as to what counts as benefiting from race. In the parenthetical comment, you say “if you were black you’d probably be less likely to be friends/family with people with beneficial connections and influence”. Let’s assume that’s true. Is this relevant to anything, and does this count as benefiting from being white?

Any given white person or black person has whatever friends/family they have. I would consider being more likely to have them if you’re a certain ethnicity to be nothing more than a statistical fact about the entire group, but is irrelevant to the individual.

As an example, suppose a black person is more likely to have whatever qualities it is that enable them to play in the NBA. Does this mean that an individual black NBA player has benefited from being black? Seems illogical to me.

If you look at blacks and whites as groups, then you can say that the white group on the whole benefits from having, collectively, more connections and influence than the black group. But each individual doesn’t benefit from “being white”.

216

The fact that you’re claiming not to be guilty of benefiting from privilege AND that there’s nothing you can do to stop benefiting from privilege in the same sentence is rather impressive. You probably believe what you’re saying, but for people who haven’t drunk the cool-aid it demonstrates the fundamental absurdity of ‘privilege’ based arguments.

Also, if you’re denying that you’re guilty of gaining at the expense of others by being white, then you’re failing to check your privilege, and this thread has made it clear that you need to do that.

217

What do you think it means to be “guilty” of something? We seem to be using the same word to mean different things.

I think it’d be nonsensical to say someone was “guilty” of being tall, or left-handed, yet that’s the same sense in which you’re saying people are “guilty” of being white, in a culture that privileges whiteness.

218

In the context of privilege, I think this is relevant. Having these contacts/friends/family with (on average) more influence in terms of assistance in getting into college or a good job is beneficial, and is a privilege, in the sense that it’s an unearned benefit that a white person is (probably) more likely to receive than a black person. Now, it’s probably a symptom of various forms of past and present discrimination and oppression, but I think it’s an example of how some of these things compound each other, in terms of making things just a bit more difficult for many Americans based on their race/gender/etc.

Certainly some black people will have influential contacts/friends/family, and some white people have none. So I think it’s a privilege that has some correlation with race, but is not absolutely tied to it, most likely. I think it falls into a basket (which might be pretty large) of “privileges that white people are more likely to benefit from, and which black people are more likely to lack, on average”.

219

That completely ignores my point, but fine. I’ve said my say.

220

Drat, foiled again. One of these days I’ll successfully interpret one of your posts, or you won’t give up after one response, and we’ll have a great discussion and learn from each other.