This. Minus the part about respecting their right to religion. I don’t respect it, I tolerate it.
Word. People might use religion as an excuse, but the truth is they would have done it anyway, religion or no. If not the religion, they would have found some other excuse.
You don’t think at least some of shitty treatment of gays isn’t from religion? Probably not all of it is, but I think there’s lots of people who wouldn’t have given a fuck about gays or if they get married if it weren’t for religion.
I’m not religious at all but know quite a few people who are active in the local branch of the Episcopalian Church and they are all seriously cool and accepting people.
And today I listened to a Terry Gross interview with the first openly gay Episcopalian bishop, Gene Robinson (who lives in NH and legally married his partner in 2010) and it made me think, again, that if I were ever to join a church, it would be a liberal Episopalian one. He was just…wise and courageous.
Naw, things like Homophobia aren’t caused by religion, they are just used by religion.
I think the religion gives them a justification for their “us vs. them” mindset, but I’m pretty sure their mindset would have existed absent any specific religion. It’s an excuse for doing something they would have done anyway.
I mean, you can just take a look at the moving goalposts of “reasons why” gays are bad. Aside from God Said So, you also have It’s Unnatural, and when you point out that yes, actually, same-sex animal pairs screw in nature, too, they’ll retreat to We’re Not Just ANIMALS, and for good measure some equating with pedophilia, etc. etc. Take away one reason, they glom onto another, they don’t change their minds.
There’s also the fact that people do some pretty awesome things in the name of religion, too. I think the behavior has more to do with the person than the religion. Good people may find a spiritual path which gives them tools to cultivate and focus their values and good behaviors, but they ended up on that spiritual path because they were good people and wanted to be there in the first place. Same with prejudiced people.
Oh, I have no doubt that a lot, maybe even most bible-thumping homophobes would hate gays anyway. But that in no refutes the likelihood that there are people who would have no problem with gays if they weren’t indoctrinated into hating them because of their religion. Do you actually think that never happens? That not any of the people who vote to deny same-sex marriage wouldn’t give a shit if it weren’t for their religion? That everybody who would normally not be a homophobe but had the misfortune to be born into a fundamentalist family successfully resists at least that part of their childhood indoctrination? That seems vastly unlikely to me. To say that never happens is to say that religious indoctrination doesn’t affect a person’s views, which is absurd.
I could have written this.
I respect any religious group that focuses on working towards social justice and doing good works in the world, and does not proselytize. The Unitarians pretty much fit that bill, as do the Quakers.
I can respect moderate Islam. To me, it just seems like the natural outcome of being monotheistic and rational about it.
Some of the people I’ve most admired in my life have been Jewish, but coming from a heavily Jewish area, I can say that I’ve met Jews on every part of the spectrum of human worth and goodness. (at least, every part of the spectrum that I’ve seen in my life.) So I’m not sure if that counts?
As a Buddhist, obviously, I feel pretty good about the Sangha, though parts of it (cough cough Japanese cough Tibetans) are off in some pretty strange places.
I can also get behind Episcopalians, because I was baptized as one, and I can’t shake the feeling that they’re… I dunno, my people? It’s the religion of power? Christianity appeals to me the most when it’s Orthodox, for some reason, despite having never had any personal contact with it; I just think it looks cool, and I don’t think Orthodoxy has so much caused trouble, the way Catholicism have, as much as just looked the other way when trouble was arising, but that’s hardly a sin my own faith is blameless for.
Well, never say never, as they say, so I’m not going to use absolutist terms, no.
If you’re talking about abusive, brainwashing level indoctrination, sure, but I think that’s actually not that common. Both myself and most of my friends from high school worked out way out of our indoctrination in late adolescence and into adulthood. It messed me up for a while, sure, but who I was, fundamentally, ended up being more assertive that what the small-town culture I grew up in tried to make me to be.
I think it’s very likely that, when challenged in adulthood once we’re walking beyond the walls of our natal culture, those who are naturally inclined to be live and let live will start having doubts about their indoctrination. The indoctrination only works, in that case, if you can hold onto your perception that gays are the alien “other,” which is impossible to do once you actually meet people who are gay and discover that they’re basically like you and your friends are. In my experience, repeated exposure to real live LGBT people leads to acceptance.
Those who grow up and continue to hate gays, I don’t even think it has much to do with hating gays specifically as much as a generalized fearfulness of anyone that’s “different.” I think that must be inherent to a personality, because applying basic adult logic to it shows that such a fear makes no sense at all. Why is different bad? Well, it isn’t, in and of itself. So if they still cling to their perception that gays are different and bad, they’re doing so in defiance of basic critical thinking skills. So either they go through their entire adulthood unable to develop critical thinking skills, or their fear is so strong that it overrides it. I think religion can play to those fears, and give them a target, but I think the fear existed first.
I think a hell of a lot of the people who vote(d) against same-sex marriage were bamboozled into it. They were fed misinformation that played to their fear of the “other.” Had they been given correct information, I think quite of few of them would not have chosen to continue to cling to their viewpoint that “gays are a threat.” Religion is not some all-powerful thing that can subsume a personality whether they will it or no. It’s a reflection of the personalities that already exist.
Back on topic, I generally find it makes more sense to respect people than abstracts. I have a ton of respect for the people in my own spiritual community. They are family to me. Paganism is not a monolithic group, and there are pagans I admire less (mostly because they’re a lot more casual about their spirituality, like Christmas-and-Easter Christians who then suppose that that makes them deep and profound, and on some level the implication is that they’re “better than” some “other” group, rather than just minding their own shit and not trying to prove something to the Joneses). There are also Christians I respect, and Christians I don’t; and atheists I respect, and atheists I don’t. There doesn’t seem to be anything fundamental to affiliation with a specific spiritual group that guarantees a respect-worthy individual. Which I suppose also ties in with my reasoning above.
I think you misunderstand them, Amish embrace and welcome all technology that doesn’t distrupt social cohesion and closeness.
What’s your beef with Hinduism?
I’d rather a moderate Muslim live next to me than a Bahai. Bahais are way too political. Shesh! In Iran, they are considered too batshit dangerous to be tolerated and Iranians know a thing or two about religious extremism.
Also, they are very welcoming of homosexuals.
I respect none of them - they are at their very core oppressive and divisive.
There are some individuals who are religious of various groups that I have respect for, regardless of whether or not I agree with their viewpoints - but religion itself I have absolutely no use for.
I will say that several faiths, including the Amish faith, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Judaism, and Islam, emphasize education. In many cases they discourage higher education for the sake of higher education but they dern well believe in basic literacy, almost always for boys and often for girls too, so that they can read the scriptures. Also, I think it’s normal in Amish families for pretty much everyone to grow up fluent in German and English. Being bilingual isn’t something that is terribly common for native-born white Americans.
No, there are no religious groups worthy of respect
End of line…
What’s up with islam and mormonism too for that matter? Note that I’m not a fan of religion either, just curious why you separated those three.
Some people just like having coffee with their breakfast steak and bacon.
I respect the Shakers for refusing to procreate, thus hastening their near extinction. A shining example for other religions.
Is he awesome? I have heard conflicting reports on that, some of which, to me, would make him Pit-worthy. Religious leaders are vermin ipso facto, we would all be better off without them.
It is comments like this that lead me to believe that many people here don’t have much experience with different religious groups and somehow make them into some kind amalgam in their mind when that isn’t true. It is the same type of thinking as racism or xenophobia. Most religious groups are pretty good to have around from a utilitarian perspective at the very least. I was raised Methodist and later became Episcopalian. I can’t see a lot of offense or problems either of those two are generating and they promote good works no matter what you believe in.
I am a church-going agnostic these days but I still admire lots of individual faiths and find value in the social institutions. Most denominations or faiths son’t have any ultra-conservative social policies or widespread scandals. You seem to be basing all your comments on those that do and assuming they are all the same when that isn’t true. That applies to many Christian denominations as well as others.
The religious hate comments in this thread don’t seem to me to be any different from those the bad religious groups try to promote themselves. I am not sure what point is other than to make disingenuous and ignorant hipster type comments.
Witnesses actively discourage higher education and in the southeast encourage homeschooling, especially by secondary school grades. Purportedly to avoid wasting time and energy on worldy pursuits with the Second Coming due any moment, but to me it looks like a shameless attempt to curtail critical thinking in young adults. They may be literate and well versed in Biblical and Watchtower Lit, but I wouldn’t give them kudos for stressing education when they do everything possible to limit interaction with outside influences, including hand waving away college as an unnecessary evil.