In another thread, one of our religious members was upset that one of our athiest members didn’t take a religious defense seriously:
Gobear said:
to which Libertarian said,
(bolding mine).
Does anyone really respect anyone’s religious beliefs? I mean, you may tolerate it, or respect the right for someone to havereligious beliefs, but you either have a different religion, by choice, or you don’t believe.
I respect the right for people to believe what they want to believe, regardless of how silly, preposterous, and even downright dangerous their beliefs are. As long as they aren’t intermingled with government, I really don’t care. But I cannot say I respect their beliefs.
Do you think it’s possible to respect something that you find ridiculous? Dangerous? Goofy?
I think you need to identify what you mean by respect. If you look at the definition here , I don’t see any reason you can’t respect views that you don’t agree with. In particular, “Willingness to show consideration or appreciation.”
I am considerate of and appreciate the beliefs my Catholic brother holds. I do not walk the same path, but I don’t think his beliefs merit anything less than respect. I respect my atheist friends, my pagan friends, my Jewish friends, my Sufi friends, and my humanist friends. I try really hard to show consideration for the beliefs of my fundamentalist Christian friends, too.
My own beliefs do not allow me to think the path they walk is wrong just because it is not my path. Admittedly, I sometimes wonder at why they believe a certain thing, but I can’t say as though I’ve ever had a lack of respect for them because of these beliefs. I think it would be arrogant on my part to think their beliefs are not valid for them. My own concept of God does not dictate that we all walk on the same path. I don’t think God has a need for us to believe in anything in particular anyway.
I do wish that some of them would show the same respect for my beliefs, but that they don’t does not influence how I regard what they believe. For whatever reason, be it cultural, social, or familial influence, they believe what is meaningful to them and if it brings them comfort and guides them to become better humans, I think that is worthy of respect.
That’s a tough and interesting question. For me, it tends to come down to the individual person, the amount of respect for that person I already have, and the actual effect the beliefs have on that person’s life. As an example, I’m certain that The Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr. was influenced, probably quite heavily, by his religious beliefs. And he’s highly respected, deservingly so. Are there individual aspects of what (I assume) he believed which, taken out of context, would seem silly and mockworthy to me, an agnostic? Sure. But what would be the point of taking them out of context in that fashion? What would it accomplish?
On the other hand, at the point in time when those individual mockable beliefs start to spill out and inflict themselves on others, then I start to lose respect for them.
Another example: some people who practice “Wicca” are pretentious braindead morons who think that they’re being nonconformist in a cool way. Others are truly thoughtful and spiritual people who take the basic credo of Wicca (Harm None) and live by it. And that’s one damn fine basic credo. In one case, I would respect their beliefs. In another case, I wouldn’t.
There are a few things that I can never respect, however:
-Anything that oppresses other people (GWB’s support for an anti-gay-marriage amendment, Orthodox Judaism’s refusal to let women be rabbis)
-Anything that tries to force a moral code on non-believers
-Any easily falsifiable claim of supernatural powers. (An ex- of mine, before converting from paganism to Judaism, honestly claimed to be able to cast magical spells. So did various people I interacted with in college. If you can cast magic spells that are even remotely meaningful, you ought to be able to prove it. And if you can prove it, why wouldn’t you? If humans are capable of actually doing magic, that’s the greatest advance in human potentiality EVER, and it’s something that people should be exploring, studying, and learning about. So prove it, already, and share this gift with everyone…)
Didn’t know the pope was a woman. Just for a quick tu quoque fallacy.
But seriously, I often find myself saying ‘I respect your opinion’ just to keep the discussion nice and civil.
In reality, there are some outrageous beliefs out there and I can’t help but lie when I say ‘I respect your opinion’. I don’t. Sometimes it’s just too silly.
There are a lot of things about my friends I don’t “respect,” deep inside, but I am polite enough to keep my trap shut about it. Yes, I happen to think religion is silly. But a lot of my acquaintances–in real life and here on the Board–are very nice, intelligent people who are happy with their religion. My mother raised me to be polite and to keep unpleasant opinions to myself.
Hell, I’m sure any number of Dopers who think of me as a delusional man in a dress, but they (with two notable exceptions) are decent enough to keep mum about it.
I second Eve and MaxTheVool’s posts… very well put. I too have very little actual respect for many religions and I still keep my trap shut as a show of being polite.
I have only felt respect for a few theists who obviously were either truly faithful and dedicated… or have shown to have a firm and well based set of beliefs… and very well founded arguments. The rest seemed like sheep repeating mantras.
Hmm, wait a minute. I agreed with Eve’s reply, but not with yours. I have plenty of respect for plenty of theists… I just don’t have much respect for theism or the beliefs thereof (and no, I’m not trying to say all theists believe the same things). I don’t blame the person, but I’ll admit I see their beliefs as a little silly. But I respect the person, so I keep my yap shut (in most cases).
There are certainly religous views out there that I disagree with. The doctrine of the Trinity, for example, is something that I severly disagree with. Another example is the claim that Jesus was the messiah. I personally disagree with these doctrines. In addition, I find that I cannot, personally, even respect them when taken in the light of my teachings and personal research on the subject.
On the other hand, I can show other people the common courtesy that I would want shown to me. I don’t expect anyone else to believe that God created the world simply because I believe it. I don’t expect others to agree on the factuality of the Exodus. But I certainly would not like having it called “religious twaddle,” even by those who dispute it. And as I want to be treated, so I try to treat others. As such, while I will dispute the Trinity at any time, I would never stoop to using derogitory terms about it, especially when there are others whom might hold those tenets dearly within earshot; simply as a matter of courtesy.
Tell me about it. If you’re going to make that claim, I at least want to see a Cure Minor Wounds or Light. If you’re really going to go on about it, I want to see an Implosion or a Time Stop. (Man, being able to cast Time Stop would be sweet).
I don’t know, I wouldn’t buy it without at least a minor resurrection and a summon or two. But that’s just me.
Anyhow, as to the OP, as someone who believes in a free society I absolutely respect the rights of anyone to hold any religious beliefs they care to. As a matter of manners, I respect their rights to hold those opinions without insult so long as they maintain reprocity.
But I don’t have any intellectual respect for their opinions, any one who believes in an invisible sky pixie is a complete gibbering imbecile as far as I’m concerned. And I see no particular reason why I have to pretend that the opinions of others are valid to me so long as I don’t interfere with their ability to hold them in peace.
I don’t understand why religious people make such a big fuss about having their beliefs respected.
I don’t care whether other people respect my views or not. I neither ask for, nor expect to get, respect for my views. I am supremely indifferent as to whether others respect my views.
I will defend my views through argument and debate. I will either win said argument or I will lose (in my own mind). Respect doesn’t enter into the equation.
Other people don’t enter into the equation. My views are my views - why should I care whether other people “respect” them or not? Respect them if you like, don’t respect them if you don’t want to. Do whatever you like, I don’t care.
I feel the same way about other peoples views. I see absolutely no reason to respect them. Whilst this approach may win me few friends, at least it’s honest.
And as others have mentioned, there is a difference between respecting a person and respecting their views. The two things are completely separate to me.
People who get upset at things like this are usually people who think that their views are an intrinsic part of who they are (usually religious people). But they don’t realise that this view (that their belief is intrinsic to them) is in itself just another belief (that I don’t agree with).
Well, you all have silly-ass beliefs, since they aren’t mine. We don’t want to admit that, but we all think it in that nasty bit of our mind we all have. The trick is to remember when an impulse like that comes from the nasty bit and not act on it.
Put me in the lack of respect camp. I generally do not bring up peoples religions, and few actually know I am an athiest. I freely admit it when people ask (well, I say I am non-religious), but I talk with people about their religion all the time, as I know a fair share about the various religions due to this message board.
However, if somebody expects me to shut my trap and “respect” their beliefs, they need to keep their mouths shut about others. Some people like to play the martyr and claim they are all hurt, but instantly turn around and become rabidly hostile talking about handstabbing and such, showing true hypocracy. (just an example, another example is those that want respect for their beliefs, but tell you to your face you are going to hell… screw that, I will tell them under all circumstances that I think they are crazy for believing such tripe)
Because views are changeable. People are not. The most die-hard religious freak can have a “road to damascus” experience and decide that it’s all hogwash. Likewise the most sceptical atheist can suddenly “find religion”.
So I don’t place much importance on what people think they believe in terms of religion or any other ideology. And anyway, I know lots of devoutly religious people (of all faiths) and I find that on subjects that don’t concern religion, they tend to be much like anyone else.
And on the subject of religion you can agree to disagree. Or if they want to argue with you, you can proceed to demolish them. It’s their choice - I’m happy either way.
I don’t see what the difference is between being religious and your position on a political issue. Responding to someone who doesn’t agree with you that they are “crazy for believing such tripe” doesn’t lead one to getting a whole lot of respect from anyone.
Never saw much use for other peoples respect. Especially people that try to outlaw things I like because they don’t like playing magical sky pixie, or condem me to hell because I don’t subscribe to their particular world views. At least if I disagree about what taxes should be used for with some conservative, he doesn’t say I am going to hell.
Why should I care if people like that have no respect for me. How much do you think it matters to me if somebody I don’t respect doesn’t respect me back?
Well, since you don’t mind disrespect, I’ll say that you have a very narrow-minded view of religion, and I’ll go out on a limb and guess that some person or event of religious nature cut you deeply at some point.
Why the paranoia about religion? By your logic, why should you care if someone damns you to hell? It doesn’t exist, and it is just another curse, like calling you a dirty hippie.
The confusion arises from the use of the language: I respect this person. What does that mean? Does it mean that you respect their behaviour, their attitudes, their thoughts, their body, their face? Isn’t behaviour or attitude a manifestation of one’s views and thoughts? Most likely, when someone says I respect this person, but not his views on X, what they’re saying is that I agree with the person on some crucial/important things and/or a majority of things, but not X. Ultimately, you are still applying your respect on the basis of some common views. Of course, if you fear someone, that’s a different kind of respect.
I’m with the Gyster here. Are we talking about “respect” as a way of thinking about others, or as a way of behaving toward others. I certainly think we should be nice and polite to our fellow homo sapiens, certainly. But do I have respect for every single belief of every religion? No way.
There are aspects of religions that I respect, certainly. The Euro Xians built some very nice cathedrals, which I personally find to have spiritual meaning. The ancient Greeks came up with myths replete with spiritual and psychological meaning. Many great thinkers, who have contributed to philosophy and science, have been religious.
On the other hand, the Mormons have offered the world only the stupidest texts and silliest beliefs–a completely negative effect on world culture and progress. I have no respect whatsoever for them, Jehovah’s witnesses, the Moonies, and host of other moronic sects.
But I do try to be polite and nice to individual members of them.