Here is the thought experiment. It is 1933, and Hitler has just come to power. He taken out of the normal time stream for one week (it will seem like an instant to others), and he is shown into a library with 2014 technology. Although he is allowed to study books and online resources autonomously, he is also compelled to understand the military and humanitarian consequences of WWII and the Holocaust. IOW, he is shown the nasty videos and is made to hear victims’ accounts. He is shown the kind of media that we denizens of the year 2014 could see; i.e., he is not made to supernaturally feel his victims’ pain or anything like that. He is never mistreated or preached to. All of the resources are available to him in German translations. He is not allowed to take any notes, photos, etc., out of the library; he can only carry what he can remember.
So what does he do?
Here is my best guess as to what he would do. I think Hitler, being a basically evil guy bent on military conquest, would try to use the information to pursue WWII more effectively. I think he would immediately begin developing the atom bomb; in fact, during his autonomous study during the week, I think he’d look at everything he could to try to figure out how to build one. I think he’d pay a lot of attention to other military hardware, orders of battle and their outcomes, and anything else that could increase his chances of success. I think he’d look for ways to help Italy, Japan, and other allies succeed without making them too powerful in the process.
I think there is a small chance that Hitler does not pursue the Holocaust. The reason is that I think that Hitler’s primary concern was creating a strong Greater Germany; if he can do that without killing a ton of people, he might pursue that option.
I think that there are two unlikely but nevertheless plausible scenarios in which Hitler decides not to pursue the Holocaust:
He decides the Jews can help him militarily. (Believe it or not, Erhard Milch, Hermann Goering’s deputy, was fully half-Jewish, and it was no secret. How this is possible I do not know, but here is some info: Erhard Milch - Wikipedia). Looking at the information, Hitler may decide that his anti-Semitism simply wasn’t worth the trouble. He may drop it entirely or go through a single symbolic purge of “Jewish interests” and thereafter just not bother.
He decides that the Holocaust was just a bit much. I think Hitler was a genuinely evil guy who was very good at surrounding himself with purely evil (Reinhard Heydrich) and morally ambiguous (Heinrich Himmler) people. Nazism used the Jews as scapegoats and the enemy Other against which to push against (i.e., fear-based motivation). Thus, everything was set up for the Holocaust to happen, especially in the fear-based climate of total war. The question remains, however, whether Hitler himself was so purely evil that he would will the Holocaust to happen if he was working from scratch. I think there might be a 10% chance or so that he decides not to go that route.
I think Holocaust alternatives, e.g. resettling the Jews on Madagascar, would look a lot more appealing, both on a moral and practical (if Germany lost) level. I agree that Hitler would probably use the knowledge to perform better during the war. There’s another possibility that you didn’t consider [edit: in your OP, that is], which is that Hitler decides that the war is probably unwinnable and chooses to take just as much land as he could without the allies declaring war on him (e.g. the Rhineland and other stuff?)
Thanks! I think that would fit under “No moral change: Limits/skips WWII for military reasons but pursues evil policies within Germany.” Though it’s possible that a partial moral change could include him just taking what territory he can.
Hitler wasn’t just surface insane; he was crazy all the way down to the core.
He really believed in a Jewish conspiracy. It wasn’t just some scam he rode to power. If anything, it was the other way around - he sought power in order to do something about the Jews.
So if he time traveled forward to 2014 and looked around at modern society, it wouldn’t change his world view. He’d just figure the Jewish conspiracy had won. He’d figure he had fought the good fight but been defeated because other people were too weak to follow where he was leading him. So the Jews won and vilified his name.
Then he’d go back to his own time and fight even harder to avoid the terrible future he had seen here.
I think this is entirely plausible but not 100% certain. Hitler either really, deeply believed in such a conspiracy, or it was more or less a useful myth with which to gather and inspire his paramilitary party.
It is somewhat like the argument about whether the National Socialists were really “socialist” or not. I think the truth in that case is that Hitler really didn’t care much about economic policy, so the question is largely irrelevant. Hitler cared about a strong, proud Germany with more territory and power over its historical and then-current enemies. I think it may be the case that Hitler would drop his anti-Semitic myth if he saw that it did not truly serve that core ambition.
I would not argue, however, that you are definitely wrong. In fact, I lean toward thinking you are right and Hitler would pursue both WWII and the Holocaust with the same fervor.
I have an idea. How about no more fucking Hitler threads. Jesus Christ.
I think our German friends must be willing to go back to war if we keep bringing this up. Why do we (you actually) keep bringing this up. I’m embarrassed for the Germans!
He can’t cancel plans for the war, since that was the plan all along: Expansion of German domination by force. That was a given from the start. He can’t decide to keep the Holocaust and cancel the war, because the Holocaust depended on occupying areas to the east so as not to have the dirty deeds done in actual Germany. He would not cancel the Holocaust, because his planned route to German dictatorship and world domination depended on scapegoating Jews and gays and Communists. Not that this plan made sense from a realistic point of view of power—whipping up hatred and other-directed violence could gain him power in the short term, but it was certain to ultimately destroy the German nation—but it was the one he’d latched onto. Verdict: Incorrigible no matter how you slice it.
P.S. Achtung! Der Doperthread is nicht für der Gethreadenscheissen und Juniormodden!
World War II was one of the biggest events in world history. And Hitler was a major figure in the war (arguably the major figure). So threads on the topic are going to appear on a regular basis. You might as well get used to skipping over them.
He sticks to the initial plan Barbarossa. No delay for Yugoslavia and no diversion of forces from Army Group Centers push on Moscow. He takes Moscow ending effective Soviet resistance west of the Volga and leaving them with a significantly reduced industrial base. The Soviets are out as a major player in the war before the US ever enters. That changes the whole dynamic and could easily lead to an Axis victory.
With victory … he can be as evil as he feels like on any given day.
I agree, but there are several ways in which such a thing can be “real” in the mind. The main issue with such “reality” in the case of the Jews is that they were not, in fact, acting per Hitler’s personal myth. I.e., the Jews were not the cause of German defeat, German weakness, etc., and the Jews did not control things per Hitler’s myth. To the contrary, the relatively small Jewish population in Germany as of 1933 was an asset to Germany (lots of scientists, etc.). So it’s plausible that Hitler could at some point see his hatred as an impediment to his ambition for conquest.
Not just a few points in there are genuinely socialist. I have read, however, that Hitler basically blew the program off, and it was mostly not implemented. Some Nazis such as Roehm and Goebbels were genuinely anti-capitalist. My personal conclusion is that Hitler was simply not that interested in the economic system per se so long as it did what he wanted so as to advanced his real goals: German resurgence and conquest.
By the way, I think there is a very small chance that, given full information about WWII and the Holocaust, Hitler could simply resign or pursue an entirely different path as a leader in 1933.
We are used to seeing the end state of Hitler as the essence of the man, but he reached that point step by step. Using power got him used to using it more, and doing a little evil prepared him for greater evil. It’s possible that, in 1933, he didn’t really want a world in ruins and millions upon millions dead. It’s possible that seeing the final result would be a big shock to the system that he could not process.
I would put the chance of that at about, oh, 1%. It’s vanishingly small but still there.
By 1933, far too many people had tasted freedom and knew about Patrick Henry, “Give me liberty or give me death”. But, please just answer me one thing. If you have any children or had any children, would you have surrendered yourself to the Nazis and allowed your children to become slaves?
Or would you instead have laid down your life in defense of their freedom?
I believe that is the single most important issue in your thought exercise.
It was an interesting exercise and I would encourage to try others. Maybe without involving time travel since that just tends to screw up the entire exercise.
He would simply deny the truth of what he had seen.
Call it a trick, or a hallucination, or blame Black Magic (which he seems to have had an interest in).
I seriously doubt he would trust a single bit of information, certain that it is all part of a “Jewish Conspiracy” to fool him into taking the wrong course action.
If he did even believe any of it - as a big believer in ‘providence’ he thought destined to bring Germany to greatness - I don’t think he’d change morally. The things I think that would change…he’d prosecute the Jews even more harshly, since if Germany was defeated it could only be due to international Jewish interests sabotaging the war effort.
The SS saw the Holocaust not as an act of mass-murder of innocents but pre-emptively removing a fifth column, so I think Operation Reinhard (called something else, though probably under Heydrich’s ruthless personal direction (Himmler is dismissed once Hitler learns he attempted negotiation with the West) starts much sooner. On England being in the war for example, he wrote his negotiations; “It was only rejected because the leading circles in English politics wanted the war, partly on account of the business hoped for and partly under influence of propaganda organized by international Jewry.”
What would change militarily…Goring’s replacement (another firing, this time for trying to assume leadership) gets much firmer instructions for the Battle of Britain, rather than his ‘attack…stuff’ strategy that he used IRL. Some sort of ceasefire or capitulation of the United Kingdom is first priority after the Fall of France and before the settling of accounts with the real enemy, Judeo-Bolshevism.
Why he still loses - reading about the attempt on his life in the July 20 plot. Officers and aristocracy are now instantly under suspicion. After it he said;*
“Few people can begin to imagine the fate which would have overtaken Germany had the assassination attempt succeeded. I myself thank Providence and my Creator not for preserving me—my life consists only of worry and work for my People—I thank him only for allowing me to continue to bear this burden of worry, and to carry on my work to the best of my ability.”*
So he becomes more distrustful and more isolated from the professional officer caste and more convinced that he was right, Germany was betrayed not only by Jews but by “ambitious, unscrupulous, criminal and stupid officers”. So like real life he dismisses the advice of his generals and displays the tactical brilliance that allowed the 6th Army to be destroyed at Stalingrad. Obviously that doesn’t happen, but it’s only a matter of time before he slips up in a similar way.
The occult business was Himmler’s bag, according to Speer Hitler thought all that Aryan mysticism stuff was rubbish;*
“What nonsense! Here we have at last reached an age that has left all mysticism behind it, and now [Himmler] wants to start that all over again. We might just as well have stayed with the church. At least it had tradition. To think that I may, some day, be turned into an SS saint! Can you imagine it? I would turn over in my grave.”*