Thoughts on GD moderation change for Gun Debate threads

[Miller]

@Martini_Enfield

If that’s how posters on the anti-side feel, and the mods have no inclination to step in and say “Even for the pit, that’s enough, dial it back”, then what possible hope is there for a rational discussion elsewhere on the boards when the anti-gun side is demonstrably incapable of arguing in good faith?

FTR, I did issue exactly that instruction in that very thread. Just not for anything that you reported, most of which was not anywhere close to crossing the “line.”

[Martini_Enfield]

No, you issued an instruction that telling someone “I hope someone you know gets shot” was too far (and I agree). That’s a very different situation to the general shitshow that the rest of the thread has become. And the fact you think all the unwarranted direct personal abuse that’s been directed at me and others in the thread doesn’t cross some sort of line only further serves to illustrate my point.

[Miller]

@Martini_Enfield

No, you issued an instruction that telling someone “I hope someone you know gets shot” was too far (and I agree).

Right, and that’s what you said I hadn’t done. So you were incorrect when you said that. I didn’t mod any of the things you flagged, because it’s a Pit thread, not a church Sunday social, and you need to expect a few body blows if you’re going to participate in the forum.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Martini_Enfield

For that stance, the anti-gun people here on the boards have called me, among other things, a child murderer

I haven’t posted in that thread, but you’re incorrectly representing the stance for which you were called this term. Unless you want to post the actual stance which resulted in this insult, it’s not good evidence of anything.

[ParallelLines]

Point, neither for nor against M_E’s argument. Although plenty of people actually engage in enlightened discourse and debate in the Pit, that’s not the main focus of the forum.

I will comment in the pit, I will occasionally argue or debate in the pit, but I fully understand that the majority of the posts and posters there are venting anger, fury, spite or snark.

If I want to argue with more emphasis on facts and rational discourse, well, much better threads and forums for it. Thus this entire thread, to improve the nature of gun discussion specifically for Great Debates.

And now we have come full circle. The end shall be the beginning, and the beginning the end.

(and I’d get fully earned snark in the Pit for such pompous musings)

[Martini_Enfield]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

you’re incorrectly representing the stance for which you were called this term

No I’m not. I’ve been nothing but reasonable in that thread, and have copped disgusting abuse from people for my troubles. Such as about the rest of the stuff you snipped out of the quote. What’s the genuine justification for that, hmm?

@Miller

Right, and that’s what you said I hadn’t done. So you were incorrect when you said that. I didn’t mod any of the things you flagged, because it’s a Pit thread, not a church Sunday social, and you need to expect a few body blows if you’re going to participate in the forum

No, I said you hadn’t done anything to stop the continued, nasty, unwarranted and frankly unhinged personal attacks being directed at me and others, and telling one person “hey, saying I hope someone you know gets shot is too far” doesn’t change the fact you’ve let all the other abuse slide. Yes, it’s the Pit and not a church Sunday social, and some nastiness to be expected (as in the “Fuck you” or “Fuck off” level) but there’s still a point where the mods should be stepping in and saying “Alright, that’s enough, even for the Pit you need to chill the fuck out”.

[Kimstu]

Here’s what I wrote in response to a cross-reference in that Pit thread:

@Kimstu

Yeah, complaining because being “reasonable” in a Pit thread hasn’t preserved you from a “shitshow” of “disgusting abuse”, or claiming that such abuse somehow demonstrates that the people abusing you are “incapable of arguing in good faith”, is missing the point.

Vituperation and venom in the Pit don’t have to be reasonable, they don’t have to be proportionate, they don’t have to moderate their “tone” if their target is responding with moderation, they don’t have to be “dialed back”. People are allowed to vent all they want in the Pit, and to take out their anger on anybody who seems to be supporting whatever it is they’re primarily angry about. The only thing they can’t do, and the only thing the Mods have to ding them for if they do do, is commit actual violations of the rules of the Pit.

Also, nothing that people post in the Pit can be taken as a reliable guide to the standards of debate that they hold themselves to in other forums, or to their ability to discuss something thoughtfully. Look at the number of usually implacable adversaries calmly discussing “What are Rights For?” in the concurrent GD thread, for example.

There are in fact plenty of us who are willing to discuss calmly even in the Pit, but that doesn’t mean the Pit has to be treated as just a slightly spicier debate forum with a little more profanity and invective. This here is a safe space for full-on rage, hatred and contempt, among other things, whether rational or irrational; and even those of us who don’t use it that way should not expect to be exempt from the phenomenon. If we don’t like it, we can ignore it.

[Miller]

@Martini_Enfield

No, I said you hadn’t done anything to stop the continued, nasty, unwarranted and frankly unhinged personal attacks being directed at me and others…

Because most of the terms you’ve cited as “over the line” are laughably picayune. “Child murderer” is the only one with any teeth, but suggesting that legal gun owners bare moral culpability for overall levels of gun violence is a GD appropriate argument. If the basic sentiment is allowed in the more polite forums, then the sentiment recast as an invective is surely allowed in the Pit.

.[quote]
Yes, it’s the Pit and not a church Sunday social, and some nastiness to be expected (as in the “Fuck you” or “Fuck off” level) but there’s still a point where the mods should be stepping in and saying “Alright, that’s enough, even for the Pit you need to chill the fuck out”.
[/quote]

You should absolutely expect much stronger vitriol in the Pit than “fuck you.” If you’re not comfortable with that, the Pit may not be the best forum for you.

[What_Exit]

Meta here, a thread for discussing what to do with Gun Debates getting hijacked, got hijacked.

Most of this doesn’t belong in this thread. Nor do complaints about moderation, especially moderation of the Pit.

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I surrender, I’m not going to make an extra effort for these gun threads.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Martini_Enfield

No I’m not.

Yes you are. You were called an ugly name because of some pretty, uh, provocative things you said about willingness to accept child deaths. You later clarified what you said in a less provocative manner, but those initial statements are what folks were responding to. You incorrectly represented the stance for which you were called that term.

@Martini_Enfield

Such as about the rest of the stuff you snipped out of the quote. What’s the genuine justification for that, hmm?

The stuff I snipped wasn’t relevant to the specific stance you took that folks responded to by calling you a child killer. That’s post-snipping 101, and it’s silly to insinuate there’s anything nefarious about it.

[What_Exit]

Hijack successful, thread closed.