There is a very old cup in Valencia, Spain, with a “plausible” story about being the real cup used by Jesus. Even if it isn’t I’m surprised that no one spoke of it (http://apologetica.org/grial.htm , it is in Spanish)
Yes there are many false relics (I know of a guy who claimed having an egg and two feathers of the Holy Spirit) and that one may turn out to be one of them, but the grail of Arthurian fame pre-dates Christianity and was very possibly a Celtic or Briton dish, which only later became the cup of the Last Supper, thus even if it existed it can’t be Jesus’s grail.
Before anyone puts “pen to paper” and calls for my head. There is some fact to the “Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene” theory isn’t there?
I’m no theologian by any means but my Ancient history classes always kept me awake. During Jesus’ time wasn’t it illegal for a man to be a bachelor at his age? I mean Jesus would have been in jail or more serious issues had he been a bachelor at the time well before his execution. Jesus came from the house of David and Mary Magdalene came from the house of Benjamin, both powerful old houses who certainly could have sired an heir. Now, I’m not going to say that after his crucifxion that Joseph of Aramethia smuggled Mary to Gaul where she lived out her lif in peace. But the Grail/chalice does have a very old symbology record dating to pre-Mithras worshippers. Whats to say the / = feminine and ^ = masculine is wrong? These are very old powerful symbols that pre-date the Roman Venus and Mars symbols (yes, i know that they are Greek as well). Besides…it’s a great mystery isn’t it and God knows how we do love mysteries…espeically all the people that log into this site.
Oh…the Templars aren’t dead…they became the Rosecrucians…follows of the Rosey Cross .HA-Ha!!
As far as I know, it wasn’t illegal, but it was extremely uncommon.
But if you’re a guy claiming to be the son of God and the Messiah (to put it simply), then being single is just a quirky habit.
Bad news, JWK. This whole “sang real” thing is not going to go away. In fact, I hear they are making a movie about it. So notify your historian cronies, because the fit is about to hit the shan regarding the whole Jesus-Mary Magdalena thing.
A source…wow…lets see it would have been 2nd year Ancient Studies subsection common laws and daily life. The name of the book evades me, sorry it has been a long time. But it discussed ancient laws of Western civilizations, Middle-Eastern, North Afriacan: Roman, Greek, Egpytian, Jewish (Semtic), and a couple of others. It also touched on South Pacific as well. I remember because on of the Tongian laws was that “no brother and sister were to share the same room unattended by another family member”. But, if this “rings a bell” with anyone else please chime in.
Hmmmm being quirky was certainly some of Jesus’ best moves. I mean where else could you say something like " Hey, I just want everybody to love everyone else." and we promptly nail him to tree. " Ahh Thank-you Mr. Douglas Adams."
I love the guys who dismiss things out right. How do you or Cecil know?
Maybe he’s “full of crap”, maybe he dismissed the Gospel according to Thomas like the Catholic church does. He probably doesn’t believe that there is a Q document…you know the Gospel according to Jesus…written by Jesus.
Beg pardon? While (so far as I know) most Bible scholars accept that the Q document (a common source for the Gospels of Matthew and Luke) exists, I’ve never seen any reason to believe or suspect that Q was written by Jesus Himself.
And Rodrigo, Ghanima’s point isn’t that movies prove that something’s a fact; they just prove that people are taking an idea seriously.
Sheesh, Rodrigo, stick it where the sun don’t shine. Nice way to treat someone new to the boards.
And thank you, Chronos for actually understanding my point.
My point was that these theories often work their way into public consciousness through entertainment sources, like movies and books. Since they are entertainment, no “proof” is needed for any theory, and the general gullible shmuck could believe it could be true. (I just didn’t think this board was read by gullible shmucks.) For instance, the horror movie “Stigmata” mentions the Christ gospel. Not being a Christian or religious scholar, I had never heard of it before I saw the movie. Now they are making a movie out of “The DaVinci Code” and I think the Sang Real thoery will be introduced to many people who would otherwise never have heard of it.
Sorry, Rodrigo, I guess I didn’t realize that you needed me to hold your hand and explain it.
I still want my source. What I wanted was something I could check. As to The Catholic Church dismissed the Gospel of Thomas.
a) She didn’t dismissed it. She studied it and saw it wasn’t the real deal (Things like “I’ll make her a man so she can be perfect” were clearly wrong.)
b)Why only the Catholic Church (I know why, but still)? You DO know NO other Christian groups accepts it, don’t you (Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Coptic, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Baptists, etc). Are they dupes following the Catholic Church? I know that that was the last thing said in “Stigmata”.
Chronos
It means SOME people are making a movie, nothing more than that. If you were talking, say, about the “Left Behind” series (which I don’t like nor believe is true) you’d be talking about millions.
Ghanima
I didn’t receive a red carpet on my first post either.
On the hand-holding thing, my wife frowns upon that so you’d better check with her.
As to the movie, it might, make people think about it, definitely, and it’ll create some buzz but that’s got nothing to do with its beleivability. Kind of what happened with “Jurassic Park”, when people went around thinking it was possible and finally all the interest flopped.
When, and if, the movie’s made this will happen. Lot of buzz, a couple of front pages, discussions on TV and 2 years later, nothing. Like what happened with Stigamata which boosted the sales and interest on the Apocryphal Gospel of Thomas. Still it doesn’t and won’t make it true.
I’m just interested in the Holy Grail, the chalice, not puffed up speculation about Jesus’ possible love children, the Rapture, Elijah’s chariot, or the Ark of the Covenant. Why not send Cecil a separate question on whether the books of Graham Hancock are well researched and scholarly or a crock of B.S.? Somebody else can ask what is the best ‘biography’ of Jesus available? Outside of later legends, the little that’s known of Joseph of Arimathea, Nicodemus, Mary Magdalene, Lazarus, and Jesus himself could fit on 2 or 3 pages of looseleaf paper. ON MOVIES: People my age, mid-40s, grew up with Sun Films, the folks who produced movies like The Search For Noah’s Ark. Sun Films took a major shot to the chops a few years back when they were thoroughly hoaxed by a scholar and a journalist who gave Sun Films more than enough rope to hang themselves. “Believe half of what you see, none of what you hear” - Mark Twain
Could you please be so kind as to point out specifically where I can find a verified copy of this “Q document”? I hear so much about it but I never seem to be able to find an actual copy of it. Where, oh, where, can I find a copy?
Now that takes history to a whole other level, the philosophical one. How does anybody know anything about history at all? Since history is nothing more than a collection of tales from other people as to what happened when where, how do you know that anything that’s been recorded as true?
I’m not sure this has to do with anything, as Cecil’s opinions on these matters have no bearing on the matter of whether Jesus was married or not. And something tells me you’re mixing up the hypothetical Q document with the fictional Gospel According to Jesus, as the idea behind the Q document assumes no specific author.
Fools may dismiss out of hand, but the more intelligent are usually able to dismiss highly ludicrous theories that lack evidence of any kind without any fear of being termed “unobservant”. Cecil’s determination that the hypothesis that Jesus and Mary were married is “probably all crap” comes from the idea that there’s pretty much no evidence for it at all. Without evidence, there’s no point from which the idea can germinate, leading one to easily believe someone made it all up.
Quite frankly, though, I would enjoy seeing a thorough debunking of the Holy Grail = blood line idea (assuming fairly confidently that it can be thoroughly debunked), instead of just dismissing it “out right”. I’d also like to see a history of how the idea came into being in the first place. Was Holy Blood, Holy Grail the first proponent of the idea? And how does Utah figure into it all?
I’ve brought up the matter with Norris Lacy, one of the two or three top living Arthurian scholars, who says that the whole thing is so stupid that no-one in the business thinks it worth refuting. I’ve warned him that it looks, from my side, as though some poor bastard is going to have to take a couple of years away from real work, before the cancer gets completely out of hand.
For what it’s worth, I’ve read enough of the relevant texts that I can safely say that the idea that there is any concealed meaning there is downright silly. You might as well talk about the “hidden meaning” of the collected “Borg” episodes of Star Trek, or of a coded message to be found in Choephoriand Sophocles’s Elektraand Euripides’s ElektraandMourning Becomes Electraand Strauss and von Hofmannsthal’s ElektraandHamlet, too.
To be more precise, it is thought that Matthew and Luke both cribbed from Mark; but, because there is a good deal in both of them that is not in Mark, it is also thought that they cribbed from something else, too. “Q” (from German Quelle – “source”) is the traditional designation for this hypothetical lost text. It is generally suspected that “Q” was something along the general lines of “Quotations from Chairman Jesus”, because they’re mostly assorted sayings and parables, which both Matthew and Luke just dump randomly into the story.
Apropos of nothing really, Dex, but I was wondering if you were familiar with the the short story Jesus Used a Paper Cup, by a chap named Adam-Troy Caastro.
I came upon it in an Anthology of Grail stories (that’s fiction people), called Grails: Visitations of the Night – which was BTW, quite an enjoyable read for someone interested in thing Grail-y.
From memory, in that story’s alternate world, the Last Supper was held in a foodhall, and Jesus was subsequently run down by an SUV in the parking lot. By then the paper cup had been thrown into the trash… and the search for the Holy Grail wasn’t a whole lot of fun.
Well, I wouldn’t want to take away from somebody’s life just to satisify my desires. However, The Da Vinci Code and associated movie are bringing the idea into the public mind deeper than Holy Blood, Holy Grail ever did. It would just be nice to be able to talk with someone who’s read either book (or done any research on the The Merovingian from The Matrix trilogy) and respond to their questions with something other than “well, most reputable scholars think it’s a thoroughly stupid hypothesis that has no basis in fact”, despite the truth of such a statement.
called Grails: Visitations of the Night – which was BTW, quite an enjoyable read for someone interested in thing Grail-y.