Thoughts sinful in and of themselves?

[CheapBastid]

I’ve heard that the word ‘sin’ means ‘to miss the target’.

Also what I’ve heard (and also what makes sense to me) is that ‘sinful thoughts’ separate one from true happiness. When one commits oneself to ‘sinful thoughts’ - for example lusty fantasies - one is not present and not happy. One is indulging in the ever seeking ‘hungry ghost’ and cannot really experience happiness.

So when one engages in ‘sinful thoughts’ or ‘sinful actions’ one is merely missing the mark and straying from actions and thoughts that lead to what could be considered ‘true happiness’.

Interesting concept that makes more sense that the ‘G-d keeping score’ model of sin that some folks seem to use.

[grimpixie]

Jesus’ teaching on the sins (along the lines of what doreen was talking about) of some who spent “all thier time in church”:

*The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector *Luke 18:9-14

[sup]9[/sup]To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: [sup]10[/sup]"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. [sup]11[/sup]The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men–robbers, evildoers, adulterers–or even like this tax collector. [sup]12[/sup]I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
[sup]13[/sup]"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
[sup]14[/sup]“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Since sin is simply (in my view/understanding) a broken relationship with God (or the actions that will lead to such a break down in relationship) it is clear that thoughts can lead to sin, although there is not the sense of inevitability that some seem to feel exists…

Grim

[pldennison]

It’s certainly not Catholic teaching that someone who does nothing but sit in church all day must eventually sin, but that’s also a situation so far removed from reality as to be irrelevant to the point the teacher was trying to make.

Aren’t there a few Catholic monastic orders engaged in adoration?

[doreen]

[quote]
Aren’t there a few Catholic monastic orders engaged in adoration?*
There are, but that is very far from reality for a Sunday school class, and at any rate, to my knowledge, even such monastic orders don’t sit in church all day (chores to be done and such).

[RTFirefly]

*Originally posted by grimpixie *
Since sin is simply (in my view/understanding) a broken relationship with God (or the actions that will lead to such a break down in relationship) it is clear that thoughts can lead to sin, although there is not the sense of inevitability that some seem to feel exists…

I have to disagree. How can I be in harmony with God while I’m thinking of harming or taking advantage of another person? I can’t. That is why, under this definition of sin, such thoughts are inherently sinful.

The ‘breakdown’ in my relationship with God for thinking such thoughts may be brief, transitory, and minor, but it’s still a moment when He and I are unquestionably not in harmony. So it may not be big sin (however one ranks such things), but it’s a sin.

[Halo13]

“…Thought crime does not entail death, thought crime is death.”

1984, George Orwell
(I hope I remember correctly…)

[KismetRose]

The weakness in the analogy is that Christian theology posits that everyone is an alcoholic even if they have never tasted a drop of alcohol, simply by virtue of being human.

 The assumption that everyone is addicted to sin simply by being human can probably be traced back to original sin.  Catholic dogma teaches that people are in fact born bad, with the taint of Adam and Eve's disobedience on them.  We supposedly have a predisposition towards sin the way a drug babies have a predisposition towards drug use when they get older.  

I have a hard time with all of this stuff, actually, because it seems to me that most human conjecture about the nature of God is just that: conjecture. It’s not like anybody really knows what they’re talking about, unless there has been a whole lot of divine revelation going on that I am unaware of. It worries me, thinking of a supreme being who cares whether or not I’m having sinful fantasies, you know? Assuming there is a God, why would it care, as long as I’m not hurting any of my fellow human beings? (This, of course, is assuming that God even cares about that.)

I was raised around four square Christian churches. I had a particularly rabid Christian babysitter named Deena who would send her daughters and I to church a lot (she played the organ for the church, after all).

At church we learned that thoughts were very sinful. I remember very distinctly one day trying to count how many sinful thoughts I had in a day. I was between seven or so years old at the time. By mid-day, I gave up, feeling utterly disgusted. If thoughts could be sinful, and sinful in a you’re-going-to-hell-for-this sinful, I felt like I was truly screwed. I couldn’t understand why god or anyone else would want to send me to hell for things which I felt I didn’t have much control over. If someone pissed me off, it felt natural to think of giving them a nice roundhouse and then going about my day. A great deal of my world was in my imagination at that point in my life, because everything sucked. My imagination was very vivid and I didn’t always imagine pretty things. Why would god care if I thought about beating up the kids who picked on me? Why would god care if I thought about telling off Deena, after having watched her beat her daughters in front of me for no good reason? Why would god care if I wanted to eat her heart every time she told her daughters that her abuse was her god-given duty? Wouldn’t god have bigger things to worry about, sin-wise - like Deena? Shouldn’t god have bigger concerns than the thoughts that people don’t act upon?

I had many issues with the Christian dogma I was raised with (which was mixed with Catholic original sin and other bits for flavor), and I seriously began to think about it when I was very young. I kid you not, I was about seven when I tried to understand why I felt there were things that were wrong with what I was being taught. It took me a good long while and I couldn’t have spoken aloud about it even if there had been someone for me to talk with. I didn’t have enough vocabulary for what I was feeling and philosophizing.

I was taught that god was beyond mortal comprehension, that god was immense, all-knowing and all-loving. In the next moment, I was also taught that the church knew all about what god wanted because the bible told them so, and that god could throw you into eternal torment for disobeying his will. My mind boggled. If god was all-powerful, why the fuck would he care what I did? He could always make it right, right? If god was all-loving, how could he bear to cast anyone into eternal torment for thinking and doing things which he enabled us to do, and which he let happen? There was so much of the dogma that made no coherent sense, and god made no coherent sense. God seemed like some hysterical mother, some micromanager gone mad, some celestial being trying to cheat at solitaire. God was acting like a human, and not like a god.

Slowly, I began to figure it out: they had made god like they were. It did not make sense to me that the source of all life and death in the universe would have a reason to be vindictive. It did not make sense to me that the range of my thoughts should be punished on a cosmic scale. While I felt that there was divinity in the cosmos, I did not buy the Christian god or Christianity. So, while I was raised in it, I did not practice it and am not a part of it (for your religious curiosity).