Three parents

The BBQ Pit
181

I don’t think that’s exactly the point. eleanorigby is repeatedly asking people to explain polyamory to her, and simultaneously attempting to argue that it’s wrong. She hasn’t brought in factual data to support her points (I doubt such data exists to start with, in fact). I guess there’s a difference between honest inquiry on one hand, stating an opinion on the other, and what eleanorigby is doing, which is starting to come across as a lawyerly sort of argumentativeness.

I’m just really surprised to see this from her - it’s not in keeping with what I expect from her. She’s coming across as pretty defensive, which seems blatantly unreasonable to me - no one’s asking her to officiate a group wedding, after all. And she’s simply making arguments that are silly - for instance, insisting that polyamory must be an emotional trial when quite clearly, for those who are disposed towards it, it’s not. I guess I just don’t see the point of her arguing this way - she seems to really be pushing an agenda here, and she doesn’t have much to support it. I find it disingenuous for her to claim to be simply asking questions when she’s arguing, basically, that polyamorists are wrong about everything they say about their personal experiences.

Like I said, it’s not what I’ve come to expect from eleanorigby, so I find it pretty puzzling.

182

You most assuredly come off as saying the monogamy is better than any type of poly relationship. You don’t even acknowledge the differing types of poly arrangements—instead lumping them all into sexual free-for-all where people just run out of the house while tossing a “going to get fucked; tuck in the kids!” over their shoulders. It has been explained by the poly folks on board that their relationships are not like this and they have thoughtfully given you a more nuanced look into what a poly relationship might entail. Despite their best efforts, you come back with more strawmen about a style of relationship that you know nothing about.

As to your poor writing skills, I doubt the mods will offer a smackdown to someone just because she can’t be bothered to make her posts readable. You keep on with your various “abbreviations” and I’ll continue to think you are a shitty writer who doesn’t really care to be understood.

183

Speaking as someone in a monogamous relationship, who has almost no interest in polyamory, I don’t believe this for a minute. I’m surprised the poly folks in this thread were as patient with you as they were. I was ready to bite your head off a page and a half ago, and it’s not my relationship you’ve been snide, dismissive, and highly judgemental about.

184

Ah, I see what you mean. I guess I was distracted by the specific phrasing used by GingerOfTheNorth – specifically “What business is it of anyone else’s?” As I re-examine what she said and my response to it, it’s really just a semantic argument that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. And, as I really hate semantic arguments that have nothing to do with the topic at hand, I should really give myself a good stern lecture. Sorry, everyone, for trying to get things off track …

185

Thanks for answerng my questions all. You put a lot of time and effort into trying to answer them thoroughly and I appreciate that.

Weighing in on the issue, I feel it is entirely incorrect to infer the dysfunctionality of any familial arrangement without knowing the details of that arrangement. Knowing general facts, such monogamous, polyamorous, gay, straight, single parent etc… is simply not enough.

Now, it is true that most studies show that, on average for example, children of single parents have a propensity towards engaging in what are widely considered deleterious behaviors. However, to attempt and stipulate that a particular family is dysfunctional based on this statistical reality would be ill-advised. It is the common error of many people to base individual judgments on generalized data.

On that point, I have not seen any hard data that indicates the “three parent” family arrangement with open sexual practices has been statistically shown to result in dysfunctional behaviors in children. A lot of people do not really understand what dysfunctional means, since it is not based solely on the existence of abnormal, uncommon or atypical social arrangements or behaviors.

In general, it is the quality of the individual familial interactions that, for the most part, determine outcomes with the socialization of children. However, this fact many time eludes people and the return to the classic, “I just don’t like it” or “It will cause atypical (or deviant) behaviors to become more prolific” argument.

For example,I remember debating gay marriage with my in-laws. One of the arguments they gave against it is that children may be raised in this environment. So, my hubby and I asked why this is bad. They expressed the possibility that there may be an increase in the likelihood of raising a homosexual child. This is of course based on the fact that the jury is still out whether or not nature or nurture, a combination of both, result in homosexuality. Our response to that, once again, was “so what?” It is not simply dysfunctional, even if the relationship resulted in an increased likelihood of homosexuality. Just as in this situation, where the possibility of having an open relationship in the child’s future is not an indicator of dysfunctionality.

I would argue that if true love, caring and understanding exist in any family structure, coupled with adequate supervision, the likelihood of the child demonstrating more adaptive and socially positive behaviors in the future is increased demonstrably. Therefore, the possible negative effects of an open relationship on the child are likely less important than things such as : alcohol abuse, violence in the family, a neglect of educational enrichment, multiple breaches of trust and/or a lack of quality and persistent supervision.

Thus, IMHO, the composition of the family group is really not a factor. Rather, it is the quality of the family interactive process that will determine function or dysfunction. I am sure that there are examples of dysfunction in poly homes just as there are in mono homes. But, predicating an assertion of dysfunctionality primarily on the existence of a polyamorous pattern of sexual behavior is not substantiated by the facts pertaining to this discussion.

As I have frequently said to many people, we do not, in the U.S., have the right to be free from things that make us feel “icky”. We do not have the right to be free from offenses to our sensibilities. Many of the arguments that assert dysfunction from atypical behavior patterns in families really boil down to “well, it is just not normal (usual) and I don’t like it or understand it, so I will choose to denigrate it first and reluctantly, or refuse to, process any data that refutes my original hypothesis”.

This same type of reaction is predicted by Social Identity theory and can be linked to all forms of prejudice including sexism, racism and xenophobia.

Good luck all and now I return you to your regularly scheduled pitting.

186

For the record, I mentioned this thread to my husband, and he said, “I should have a look at that. I haven’t read the Dope in a while.”

And he did, in fact, laugh at me. :wink:

187

I’ve been out of town for a while, and I just now got all caught up with this and the other poly threads. I want to thank the poly people who opened up about their private lives and everyone else who encouraged civil discourse. I’m not poly myself, but it’s something I keep running across and have been considering, since I’m not completely convinced about monogamy, either. I wanted to start a thread asking poly people about how they handle jealousy, but after the last couple threads, I’d given up on having a polite conversation about polyamory on the Dope. I’m impressed that this thread managed, for the most part, to do just that - in the Pit, no less!

188

I do try to be civil and informative, even though I am also a cranky bitch with a short fuse. :wink: My experience with poly-related threads on the Dope (note that I joined the board to yell at a Pit thread about open relationships several years ago) is that they seesaw wildly between informative conversation and personal nastiness; sometimes the balance is more one way than the other.

If you’re still curious about jealousy, I’ll repeat what I said in the jealousy thread in IMHO: jealousy is a pointer to a problem. The problem is some form of “This person feels that their stuff is threatened”. The solutions are (in decreasing order of preference for me) something like: “make the stuff secure”; “remove the threat”; “give up on that stuff (and everything depending on it) being theirs”.

I don’t get ‘conventional’ jealousy responses – as I said above, I’ve never been a joined-at-the-hip sort of gal, so I’m not threatened by time spent elsewhere unless it cuts into the time that’s mine; I’ve never seen emotional bonds or sexuality as being something that can belong to someone other than the person who has it, so I’ve never been attached to exclusivity, and someone loving/having sex with someone else also doesn’t threaten what’s mine. Poly people who do have some level of belief (conscious or otherwise) in one of these things will react differently than I do.

I do get jealous, though.

Worst case of jealousy I’ve ever had: a guy with whom I had a fairly undefined romantic friendship (mutual love, mutual attraction, not really doing anything about it) wanted to go to a Rennaissance Festival with a bunch of friends; he wanted to scout it out the week before to check the layout and the acts and such, so he invited me to take the weekend trip down with him. So we drove (MA-PA), crashed in a hotel room together (no sex, much snuggling), got to the Fair, and he immediately fixated on the girl ahead of us in line to buy admission (very much his physical type) and basically spent the entire Fair with her. So jealous I got a splitting headache.

I dealt with that one basically by pointing out that he and I had no commitments or relationship expectations, and while I thought (and still do, damnit, I don’t think I was out of line emotionally here) that he was asking me to spend time with me, he hadn’t defined it as some sort of date. Basically, I decided that he and I were pretty much incompatible as basic relationship material – so, option three. The way he does relationships makes no damn sense to me, so I refrain from engaging on that level.
Second-worst: My ex and I were having a rough time, aggravated by the fact that he wasn’t being as emotionally supportive as I needed. I was dealing more or less okay with this up unti the point I came across him offering emotional support to a mutual friend of ours (not one of his partners or someone he had a commitment to provide that support to); I snapped and pulled an, “I expect you to offer me the support you agreed to provide before you go throwing your resources at people to whom you don’t have commitments; if you can’t manage to keep your commitments, at least do me the basic courtesy of not giving my stuff to someone else.” Basically a “I want option 1, but if you can’t handle that, at least do option 2.” When I’d calmed down I asked him if he wanted the out – to not have that responsibility for my emotional well-being (option 3) – and he affirmed that he did want to keep the established commitments.
The first time my now-husband got involved with someone else, we were long-distance at college. He called me up and said, “Dear, we need to talk.” I freaked out a bit, he told me what happened, I took a piece out of him – for using the ‘Dear, we need to talk’ phrasal panic button for something so minor. We had agreed this was okay, so what was with the panic button? :}
Basically, I try to keep my perceptions of what’s mine limited to what is agreed to as something I have a good reason to expect; for the most part, if I recognise that I’m being a domineering bitch and expecting stuff that isn’t mine, I’m able to back myself down with a good, solid, “Lilairen, stop being an asshole.” The hard times are where both parties agree that one of them should have certain stuff, and the stuff still isn’t there for them.

I feel very awkward when I feel possessive of stuff that isn’t agreed as mine; I’m dealing with that at the moment. (Nothing for jealousy per se, but stuff I recognise as “If you did this sort of thing with someone else, I would get wickedly jealous.”) I’m not comfortable with wanting to ‘own’ categories of interaction, frankly, so I really need to talk with my boyfriend about this – I’m not sure if it’s a new-and-insecure thing or something that will last long-term. And even if it never turns up relevant, I don’t want it to bite us on the arse.

189

Lilairen, total hijack, but you live in the same general area as The Weird One and I. And I looked at the link to your blog in your profile and I had the exact same experience with the stupid Charlie Tickets and not all stations being converted! Of course, much of Boston probably shares that experience.

Anyhow…your statements about jealousy are really interesting. That is where it would totally break down for me, and I do realize that a lot of that has to do with me and my feelings of insecurity. As much work as I do on myself, I don’t see that part ever changing. I grew up with a mother who clearly felt that love for other people took away from love for her—like it was a zero sum game. To tack onto Lissa’s statement, more love = more love is a good message to give children, even if the mode of delivery is different. I have tried very hard to get away from my mother’s influence, but there is often a little kid part of me that pouts if people like someone else better than they like me. Stupid, I know, since there are LOTS of people who don’t have me at the top of their list, but I just don’t know how I could tolerate my husband being one of them.

190

Wait, what? You’re describing an event where a guy asked you to go somewhere and then promptly abandoned you, and you decide that you’re “incompatible” rather than recognizing that he was a jerk? I’d be mightily pissed at a platonic friend who did that to me, much less someone I was in some sort of physical relationship with. This post, at least, sounds a bit too unjudgmental from my perspective - you really feel you only have a right to expect things you’ve explicitly agreed upon? I just can’t understand that at all. That sounds to me like it must involve a ton of work, if you can’t so much as expect a guy who invites you out for a weekend to actually spend it with you unless you specifically agree to it in advance. I guess I don’t see why you should repress your feelings about that; this is the most troubling incident I’ve heard described - not because of the event, but because it seems to me like you’ve decided that perfectly healthy, normal reactions to what someone else does are a problem. I just can’t see how that could work in the long run if you have to do that often.

191

It’s not really as clear-cut as you’re presenting it.

He and I had gone back and forth on what sort of relationship we had a lot and were entirely unclear about it. He’s basically the king of mixed signals, or was, uh, … nine years ago when this happened? Maybe eight years ago. Because he couldn’t sort out what he wanted and what he was comfortable with, he kept seesawing wildly in his behaviour. I was (a bit stupidly, but I was ~20 at the time) hoping for something more; he wasn’t entirely comfortable with the poly concept and couldn’t figure his own responses out worth a damn.

If we’d gone to the fair with my expectations in a friends mode, then his hooking up with the girl and her friends wouldn’t have been a problem for me; we’d have been hanging out with a bunch of generally amiable people and doing the fair as opposed to hanging out with just each other and doing the fair. Since I had the expectation that we were basically having some sort of outing as something resembling a couple, it was a very nasty experience.

He was all apologetic, I shouldn’t have led you on, yadda yadda afterwards. I basically said “The hell with this, you make no damn sense to me” and resolved the situation thereby. Which is not far off writing him off as a jerk, honestly; he’s not actually a jerk, but a combination of indecisiveness and inability to fucking communicate make a good approximation at times. Sweet guy in general, fecking clueless in specific, filed in the department of not my problem.
And really, one event nearly a decade ago doesn’t strike me as “often”. I posted all my significant jealousy experiences, which is, y’know, two things total. The one you find so disturbing I just file as “Man, teenagers and young twenty-somethings can be dumbasses”, because in the grand scheme of things, that’s what it was. He led me on; I let him; I learned not to do dumb shit like that.

192

Maddening, isn’t it?

I’m sort of boggled that they didn’t do North Station before Central. The hell? I suppose they may be doing blue line, then red line, then … who knows. (I was used to Wonderland having the damn tickets, since I bus to there fairly regularly.)

I may have to change my location tag when we move, though, since we’ll be leaving Essex County (we’re looking at houses in Middlesex). Will have to come up with something else that amuses me, I guess. (When uninfomative location fields were pitted a while back I nearly changed it to ‘City of Sin’.)

I’m sorry. :frowning: Yeah, ingrained insecurities can trip up jealousies a lot. My husband’s girlfriends both have a lot of “I’m eminently replaceable, I’m not that special or important” issues. Mine don’t tend to go that direction – relationships I tend to be fairly secure in, for whatever reason – I’m more prone to the ‘I feel small and scared for no damn reason, I need to be held’ sort of thing.