(bolding mine), it implies that the issue in eleanorrigby’s marriage that causes the unhappiness is monogamy. If the point were that people who have unhappy relationships (mono- or poly- ) shouldn’t question other people’s relationships (mono- or poly- ), it should have been stated as such. “I’m not sure how you justify criticizing other people’s relationships—you’re on record as having an unhappy marriage. Obviously you don’t know everything there is to know about relationships.” Or something to that effect.
Doesn’t matter to me either way. Polyamory would never work for me, but it sounds like it’s working just fine for other folks here.
I’ll only repeat this once. We spend more hours of the day together than any family I know. This four day thing is an unusual occurance (hence my talk with him when it stopped working for me). Generally, he’s out one night a week or less. He doesn’t go out until the kids are in bed. I fail to see where he’s taking quality time away from them.
No. He is being taught that different people require different things and different romantic relationships and that communication is vital to ensure that what you want in a relationship is what your partner wants. If I EVER hear he’s “screwing around”, there will be Pissed Off Mama to pay (and that applies to my husband, as well.)
Um, OK. Your attitides seem creepy to me. Boy, that was useful!
Yep. We don’t have a lot of Rules, but we have a few. Breaking the Rule would most definitely be cheating. I don’t keep a list by my computer of The Rules, but here are the few I remember at the moment.
Condom use with everyone except each other.
One particular ex of his and one of mine is off limits. They were the hugely dramatic “star-crossed-loves” of our past, and neither of us is comfortable with the kind of emotions or drama they would likely bring back into our lives.
I have agreed not to be physically active beyond a hug with another man in front of him. It bugs him, so I’ve agreed not to do it. While I’m not bothered by him doing the same (kissing someone, touching her hair, having her on his lap, etc.), in practice he won’t do that around me because he doesn’t “get” why it doesn’t bug me. But it’s not a Rule for him, just something he does.
Traditional holidays are spent together as a family. I would be extremely upset if he blew off my mom’s Thanksgiving to hang out with his girlfriend. That would probably be the worst betrayal possible, seriously. I’d rather he break Rule #2.
Anything that interferes with the health and welfare of our immidiate family comes first, including mental health and the health of our home. If outside activities begin to interfere, they will be curtailed.
As you can tell from 4&5, unlike Lilairen, I do have a relationshp with clear “primary” and “secondary” partners. I come first, he comes first, our kids come first. Any other relationships are pursued as “extracurricular”. Yes, this lessens the time we can spend with others, and sometimes that affects the “deepness” of that relationship adversely. But I do share the same concerns all of you do about making our children a priority and giving them a good dose of family time, and I don’t know how else to do it. Neither of us has met anyone we’d consider asking to be part of our daily lives, although we’ve talked about it “someday maybe”. I envy Lilairen’s position of doing this before becoming a mother - I suspect it changes things dramatically. If I was not a mom, I’d have a lot more freedom of time and movement, but I chose to give up those freedoms years ago, and the rewards are absolutely worth it!
No, not constantly. Once in our relationship (7 years, 8 years? I can never remember), we had to insert #3 in the list above, after he found out it bugged him when I kissed and cuddled around a campfire he was on the other side of. We hadn’t discussed it earlier because it hadn’t come up. Other than that, and the destruction of one rule (No mutual friends, but that didn’t work for me because he knows everyone I know!), our list is the same as it ever was. Things get discussed when they’re teeny tiny inklings of problems, to prevent them becoming huge big problems that need to get put on The Rules.
I’m 31, he’s 36, most of my “others” are in their mid to late 30’s, most of his in their mid to late 20’s or early 30’s. So we follow the general dating patterns of men and women in the US. This is my first poly relationship, and his second. We met 7 or 8 years ago, and decided before our first date that IF this went anywhere, we wanted to date other people as well. I knew none of the terminology or how to discuss Rules or anything, he knew a tiny, teeny bit more. As I said before, my dad and step-mom have an open marriage, which I had known about for some years. The last few exes and I had fidelity problems, and I gradually found myself wondering if “open” might be the way to go for me. Oddly enough, that wasn’t because I wanted to “cheat”, and it wasn’t because I was afraid of being cheated on again (although both of those were true), it was because I noticed I wasn’t raving spitting viciously angry when they cheated, as all my social training had taught me I should be. I noticed that my reaction to another woman was more “hmmmmm…interesting. I wonder why he felt the need to go outside our relationship?” and less “you cocksucking, cheating bastard!!!1” After two years of celibate singlehood pondering that notion I met my husband - who had been doing much the same pondering on his end - did some internet research, got some advice from my folks, and decided to have a go at it.
Thanks, lorene --that is exactly how I took it, and I think that was what was implied. Monogamy is what you make it–I think my point is that polyamory is just as prone to all the hurts, joys(?), sorrows as monogamy.
I have an observation and a question and then I must move on to grad school stuff and run the household stuff.
I doubt I will ever understand this mindset, and I feel there is something missing in the scenarios described. I just can’t believe that there isn’t some Fatal Attraction-like discarded ex out there or a dsigruntled spouse who has too little self esteem to leave and so puts up with this “freedom”. To add that this is done with friends is the kicker for me. I admit it: I am baffled. And even vaguely threatened by this.
I am struggling to even see this as freedom, if adherents would call it that-it appears to me to be messy, complicated and time consuming. I don’t see anything stifling about monogamy. I don’t see why something as essentially silly as sexual attraction and as potentially dangerous, should dictate anyone’s actions.
Meals together as a family are great and should be encouraged, but they do not true intimacy make. Excuse me for perhaps treading where I should not, but are the trappings of idealized American life more important to you? I mean, do you point to the dinners etc as a way of reassuring those who aren’t polyamorous that you do adhere to some important conventions? I really don’t mean to be offensive, and I can see why you would do so. I’m just asking.
I also (and I feel this must be said, but dont’ mean to be offensive) think that those who practice polyamory have a great deal invested in painting it as pretty as they can. There must be a downside–everything, from birth to death has a downside. I’m fine with you not experiencing one or working through it or changing your mind or whatever-but nothing-no human behavior- is without both positive and negative possiblities. Perhaps, (to be flip)-you all are “pink fluffy stupid” about the whole thing?
For example, there are Rules, there are standards–true, they differ from “couple” to “couple”, but they are there. Good enough. But somewhere along the line, someone is going to trangress those rules–and you(general you) will either be the instigator or the hurting one. What I just said holds true for dating people, for engaged and for married folks. And what if, what if the scales tip? Not your BF/GF on the side–they’re fine with this–it’s your spouse or primary partner who now wants BF/GF to move in or whatever. How now, brown cow? I know no-one can really answer, because the answers are as varied as people themselves–but this is a downside, no? What of a side dish who wants to be main entree? Glenn Close lives! (joke).
I just can’t believe that this is as simple as “Daddy going out to fuck someone else and we’re gonna play Candyland. Tomorrow is my night to fuck around. Go brush your teeth!” (sorry, whynot --not picking on you, just imagining one such scenario.) Because that is what is happening, no? Daddy is not out with Rebecca to delve into her intellectual precocity and learn about existentialism. You are not out talking to Scott about weather patterns of the past century and global warming. I can easily see a teenager viewing this as “screwing around”. You are. Yes, you are acting acceptably according to mores determined by your social group–to go all sociological–but in the greater scheme(Western world societal values) of things, you are out screwing around. Teens and kids learn values of their greater society–and they want very much to conform. I see a real challenge here for people who are parents and practice polyamory. As I said in the beginning, the jury is still out on this.
I am not trying to dissuade you. I am happy to live and let live. I value the open-ness here on the SDMB so that I can think aloud (which is what my entire contribution to this thread has been)–I hope I didn’t prevent anyone else from doing so.
And now for my question: why does a thirteen year old have an 8:30 bedtime!?
As I already answered everything else, I’ll tackle this one.
'Cause it’s what he needs.
We’ve tried a number of bedtimes, and 8:30 is what allows him enough sleep to not be a zombie in school the next day. He doesn’t have to go to sleep at 8:30, but he has to be ready (teeth brushed, face washed, in sleeping clothes, etc.) and in his bedroom reading a book in his bed. He usually falls asleep by 9 and is up at 6 to shower and eat breakfast with us before leaving for school at 7:15.
For what it’s worth, it’s my experience that most teens don’t get nearly enough sleep. Our doctor maintains that teens need more sleep than anyone except newborns, because they’re growing so fast (and you only grow while you’re sleeping.) I think she’s right.
I don’t understand why you and other keep insisting this is what the kids know or how you tell them. I go out with someone, I tell the kids “I’m going out with my friend Jason” or “I’m going to see my friend Dan” or “I’m going to Amy’s for a while.” I don’t tell them what I’m DOING while I’m there… why the hell should I? Why should they know that Jason and I had a few beers and played video games at his house, or Dan and I went to the mall to do some shopping and then ended up smooching at his place, or that Amy and I went to the movies and browsed a craft store for a couple of hours? If they ask, “What did you do?” I’ll say “Hung out at Jason’s” or “went shopping with Dan” or “Saw a movie with Amy.” I could have seen the movie with Jason, and played video games with Dan, and ended up shopping/smooching at Amy’s, or any other combination of the three.
I don’t understand the insistance on apparently throwing my/your/whoever’s sex life in the children’s faces. What purpose does that serve?
I figure a lot of it is that people can’t comprehend having a sexual relationship with someone and NOT displaying it in other parts of their lives … around the house, whatever. Sorry you (generic “you”) can’t comprehend it, but that’s what’s happening.
Also, eleanorigby, sorry I missed the context in which you were told that. IMNPFHO, telling you that “obviously monogamy isn’t working for you” is blatantly stupid. What, if someone has a rough patch in their church or crisis of faith, should you tell them, “Well, I guess judeo-christian monotheism isn’t working for you?” Not unless you’re a) a giant asshole, b) on a message board (;)) or c) both.
People who have alternative lifestyle who condemn “normal” people for NOT being “alternative” annoy the fuck out of me. And christ knows I don’t have much fuck to spare. (A note: I don’t have any boyfriends or girlfriends. Just a husband. He doesn’t have any boyfriend or girlfriends. Just a wife.)
I find it amusing that both sides find the others’ situations confusing and overly complicated. “It’s much easier this way, your way has too many rules” seems to be everyone’s mantra.
Why does everyone feel a need to “understand” polyamory? It’s not my bag, either, but it certainly doesn’t make a difference to me what goes on under someone else’s roof (or blankets) as long as it’s not harming anyone. Those who are in poly relationships say their kids and relationships are thriving. Why is it so difficult to take them at their word?
There will be many things in your lifetime that you won’t understand. You don’t need to understand. You just need to live with other people’s choices. It’s not hard to wrap your brain around that, is it? People make choices you don’t agree with all the time. It’s part of life.
I did not suggest a poly marriage would work for you or solve your marital problem. I am saying that it seems you are not the person who should be talking about how any type of relationship is better than another when your current relationship is shit. Pretty simple–tend to your own fucking knitting. Don’t tell others what type of relationships are the best when you don’t have experience with a good one. Quit touting monogamy as the best way, when it fails for a huge percentage of the population, including you.
Also, eleanorigby, please start using the word “night”. Noc may mean something to you (and other medical professionals) but it irritates the hell right out of me.
Trying to give a full answer, which may appear tangential:
I never had a belief that all people were going to be monogamous. I somewhat whimsically suggest at times that this comes of watching soap operas with my mother when I was small; the impression I have of soap operas is still that if people sat down with their latest flame and said, “Look, I have never managed to have a monogamous relationship; I’ve told every partner I’ve ever had they they were going to be my One this time and it never worked out. Do you still want to be with me even if I’m not going to say ‘This time will be different’?” then all the plot would go away.
It was never a big deal thing for me. So long as people were up front about what they preferred, I figured no harm done. (Certainly not compared to the people in soap operas who are incapable of learning from experience.)
When I was sixteen I got involved with a boy at summer camp, the standard summer romance teenager thing with a lot of hand-holding and stealing his hackysack so he’d pay attention to me. I didn’t see a reason to end the romance because we went to our separate homes (we had a lovely epistolary relationship for a while which at this point has mostly settled down to emailing each other on our birthdays); he said, “Okay, that’s fine, but I’m not gonna be monogamous long-distance, that’s the stupidest thing ever.” That seemed entirely reasonable to me; I was more interested in security/confidence in the relationship than monogamy.
At some point I discovered that I was interested in another fellow without it affecting my feelings for the established boyfriend. That was all terribly confusing (last I had heard that particular fellow was monogamously partnered, and I couldn’t make sense of him at all) but eventually settled into a relationship. Over time the relationship with the guy in California petered out, and the new guy and I were each other’s sole partners for a while.
I was going away to college; he was staying near our parents’ hosues for college. In “Long-distance monogamy is the stupidest thing ever” redux, we formally declared our relationship open. Part of the reasoning, we figured, was that we were very serious about each other, and if someone else was going to shake our conviction that we wanted to get married, we would really rather know. (I did post in the ‘What makes you special’ that I married my high school sweetheart. )
Basically, after that, everything was learning what works for us experientially. He had been attached to the concept of monogamy, somewhat, and found the openness a little unnerving at first; he chose to work through this without telling me about his insecurities, and did so pretty well, though I was a little irked that he didn’t talk with me about it when he told me he had them. Mostly, our pattern was that he had the very occasional casual relationship, I had a single steady boyfriend, up until 2000-2001, when he met and got involved with his long-distance girlfriend.
I’m 28; my husband is 30; my boyfriend and his partner (who is husband’s local girlfriend) are also 28; husband’s long-distance girlfriend is 30, I believe, and her husband/my ex will be 31 in December. I think. Husband and I will have been together for twelve years next month; my ex and his wife about that long; boyfriend and his partner for eight or nine. Husband and LD girlfriend 5 and a half years; husband and local girlfriend a bit more than a year, me and boyfriend a year next month. (If trying to map that in your head is complicated, think of it as a digital-clock 6.)
Both of my husband’s other partners considered themselves the monogamous partner of a poly person until they fell for my husband; I get the impression that this was fairly disconcerting for both of them. My boyfriend, as far as I know, considers himself poly, but committed to a monogamous relationship with his partner because he hurt her pretty badly when they were both ~22 by doing poly badly; she opened the relationship up again, not him.
Partly because it is interesting, partly because it is foreign. Just because I don’t choose something doesn’t mean I don’t like to know about other people who do. I think for many of us monogomy is so ingrained that it would be like if someone came along and said, “I prefer to walk on my hands instead of my feet.” Our first instinct is to go, “whaa?” Why? How? Isn’t it harder, blah blah blah. How can we come to understand if we don’t ask, and isn’t understanding the first step toward living in peace and harmony and buying each other a Coke?
For the same reason you study another culture. It is human nature to think our way is the best way, but I think most people here are curious but not trying to necessarily condemn. People are naturally touchy and defensive when it comes to their relationships though, so it’s easy to take any questioning from either side as saying “your relationship is inferior to mine.” But hopefully people here are secure enough in their own relationships to not care if we all prod a little.
Attend to your own. I have never said in this thread that monogamy is “better”. I have said it is the societal norm for the world. I also never said that singlehood, polyamory or polgamy are “better” either. Please read for comprehension.
I am not telling anyone what type of relationships are better than another. You know fuck all about my relationship-you don’t even know if it is monogamous!
I have not touted monogamy as the best way for all-I have said that it is best for me and that I am struggling to see why polyamory works for others.
I’ll post the way I do until the mods have something to say, thank you very much. You irritate the hell right out of me. And this exchange accomplished what, exactly?
Why Not -I was wondering because it seemed a bit on the early side for his age, but if it works, then great! And thank you for being patient with my ponderings and questions.
Hamad --I was using hyperbole to drive home a point. I certainly hope children are not talked to that way! Just as someone wouldn’t say, “Sweetie, I’m going out with friends to get drunk or smoke weed” or whatever. But kids have a way of figuring stuff out…
I have to leave this here-I have two papers due by Wednesday.
I get the impression that you really, really want there to be some sort of dark secret to dredge up, some sort of horror that would let you say, “Ah! I knew there was something wrong with this.”
I’m also sort of bemused that some of the things I’ve talked about don’t qualify to you as discussing downsides. I don’t have any deep personal resentments to talk about, which appears to be what you’re craving, but I know I’ve mentioned several issues that had to be worked through in this thread, as well as at least one hostile parent and a family who had their polyness used by a stalker to try to get their children taken away. Frankly, if you’re not satisfied with someone threatening people’s kids because they think that a non-traditional family structure is good cheap leverage …
And I can’t believe you still think that this is anything other than offensive, bigoted bullshit. If you must make up naughty fantasies, at least have the common decency to not wank off to them in public while claiming you want answers to your questions.
I understand what you’re saying, and I feel the same way. But some people are all, “I want to understand but it can’t be good for the children” blah, blah, blah. They don’t want to accept that it is a positive lifestyle for those who choose to embrace it. Asking a million questions and continually rejecting the possibility that there are no bodies under the bed isn’t inquiring honestly.
Stop it-I said that I was not trying to play “gotcha” and I meant it.
So much for listening. Have at it–why would my disapproval make an iota of difference? I am not about to legislate against this or write an op-ed piece or even mention to my neighbor. I don’t care what you do. I dont’ care how often, how much, how many partners you have. I opened this thread and a world I was ignorant of was suddenly in my face. Sorry if I didn’t immediately glad hand you and envy you.
I tried to answer your inquiry seriously, in the hope that the questions under the hyperbole would be satisfied. Instead, it seems as though you are either unwilling or unable to let go of the idea that OMFGWTFBBQL0LZ THE CHILDREN WILL KNOW ABOUT ALL OF THE FUCKING GOING ON ALL THE TIME!!! AAAAAAAIIIIIIGHHHHH!!! Several people have tried to explain why this isn’t exactly a burning problem in their family or circle of friends, but you just can’t stop thinking about the poor children … finding out.
cue dramatic musical interlude
Get your mind out of the gutter. It’s not all about sex. Pervert.
I have known Hamadryad for about 5 years online, and four in person. I know her husband and her children and some of her friends. I also know that her children know absolutely nothing about their extramarital relationships.
They don’t carry on raucous orgies into the night, they don’t go about fucking other people in the living room while the kids play on the X-Box, they don’t parade nude down the street. To all appearances, they have a lovely, normal marriage (and I have never met a more committed and in-love couple) and three nice kids, and live in the suburbs; which they do. They also happen to occasionally date other people, and sometimes there is sex involved.
Let me also state here, I had a big issue with open/poly marriages before I met her and her husband. It’s not what I would chose, but it works for them. What business is it of anyone else’s?
It isn’t. Unless you post it on a public message board.
Now I suppose that sounds snarky and I suppose it is, but I’m serious. I don’t go around snooping into people’s sex lives. I avoid all the TMI threads and whatnot because I’d really rather not know.
But look. You decide what details about yourself to post on a message board. You are implicitly asking for public comment. Complaining that people then proceed to comment is a bit silly, don’t you think?
You know, there’s a difference between “expressing approval” and “not treating other people’s personal lives as some sort of XXX movie / soap opera crossover”. It’s a difference large enough to drive a semi through without clearance issues.
I don’t give a damn if you approve, so long as you don’t threaten my family. However, if you’re going to spew off your ‘Girls Gone Wild’ fantasies as if they had the remotest resemblance to reality, I will tell you that you are full of festering bullshit. And because this is the Pit, I can say ‘stop wanking off on how naughty this is and pretending you’re making civil inquiries’ rather than just thinking it real hard.
I would like to think that I have been forthcoming in answering questions here, even ones directed specifically at WhyNot; mind, the overwhelming majority of people who have posted in this thread haven’t been turning every piece of information into crude porn.
Funny, that’s exactly how I feel about eleanorigby whining that people aren’t approving of her vulture-like circling over other people’s lives hoping something will die for her.
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