Three parents

The BBQ Pit
61

[QUOTE=WhyNot]
Suuuuuuuure. Keep tellin’ yourself that. One of the best polyamory conferences in the US is in Tennessee every year, sweetie.
I’m not sure what I think about the “born poly” idea. It’s actually not at all widespread in the circles I move in, and is often seen as riding the coattails of the gay movement with no evidence to back it up (even less evidence than the innateness of homosexuality.)

I’ve done mono well and I’ve done it poorly. I’m happier now than I’ve ever been now that I’m in an open relationship. Could I (have I) been happy in monogamous relationships? Sure, but they’ve almost all ended in infidelity (usually I’m the one cheated on, but not always) and the attendant drama, lies and pain. So maybe I’m not cut out for it. I don’t know. This just makes more sense and less negativity for me.
[/QUOTE]
See, this last paragraph is what makes me question whether or not it is more of an orientation than anything else. I have never had trouble in mono relationships, never cheated, never been cheated on. To me, mono is the easiest thing in the world, while the thought of maintaining an additional relationship seems so complicated, I can’t imagine ever considering it in a million years. So, what is the difference between you and me? Nothing more than a basic personality difference? I don’t know…it seems like more than that somehow.

62

[QUOTE=Sarahfeena]
See, this last paragraph is what makes me question whether or not it is more of an orientation than anything else. I have never had trouble in mono relationships, never cheated, never been cheated on. To me, mono is the easiest thing in the world, while the thought of maintaining an additional relationship seems so complicated, I can’t imagine ever considering it in a million years. So, what is the difference between you and me? Nothing more than a basic personality difference? I don’t know…it seems like more than that somehow.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t know either. But is it important?

There are people who are completely and utterly disgusted at the idea of raisins. Are they born anti-raisin? Is it important? As long as no one’s forcing anyone to eat raisins or not eat raisins, I just can’t bring myself to care.

If a person says a thing, a “lifestyle” or a gender works for them, and all involved are consenting adults, then why do we even care why they feel that way? I just don’t see why it’s important. It seems like the only reason some people want to determine whether or not these things are “orientation” is so that they can assuage themselves of any guilt for “allowing” such “perversion”. If it’s inborn, then they’re off the hook. If it’s not inborn, they feel a need to take it unto themselves to be the Morality Police, because obviously anything not “the norm” must be Bad.

I don’t care if gay people are born gay or made gay or decide to be gay. Doesn’t affect me even a tiny bit. They’re not harming anyone by being gay, and they say they’re happy, so what’s it to me? Same thing (for me) with polys.

I don’t mind answering questions (and, of course, we all know how much I like to talk about myself), but I do sometimes feel resentful for having to defend what, to everyone involved, is working just fine. You’ll notice I got quiet there for a while in the “other thread”. I’m just not interested in repeating the same thing over and over again. If it didn’t convince someone the first time, it probably won’t the thirty-first.

63

[QUOTE=WhyNot]
I don’t know either. But is it important?

There are people who are completely and utterly disgusted at the idea of raisins. Are they born anti-raisin? Is it important? As long as no one’s forcing anyone to eat raisins or not eat raisins, I just can’t bring myself to care.

If a person says a thing, a “lifestyle” or a gender works for them, and all involved are consenting adults, then why do we even care why they feel that way? I just don’t see why it’s important. It seems like the only reason some people want to determine whether or not these things are “orientation” is so that they can assuage themselves of any guilt for “allowing” such “perversion”. If it’s inborn, then they’re off the hook. If it’s not inborn, they feel a need to take it unto themselves to be the Morality Police, because obviously anything not “the norm” must be Bad.

I don’t care if gay people are born gay or made gay or decide to be gay. Doesn’t affect me even a tiny bit. They’re not harming anyone by being gay, and they say they’re happy, so what’s it to me? Same thing (for me) with polys.

I don’t mind answering questions (and, of course, we all know how much I like to talk about myself), but I do sometimes feel resentful for having to defend what, to everyone involved, is working just fine. You’ll notice I got quiet there for a while in the “other thread”. I’m just not interested in repeating the same thing over and over again. If it didn’t convince someone the first time, it probably won’t the thirty-first.
[/QUOTE]

Very well said.

I appreciate you (and the other polys) making yourself available for questions. While I don’t have any issue with the poly life (I know it sounds trite, but I’ve had good friends that were poly) I find that I do have questions. I didn’t get to ask them in the other thread because of all the stupidity it got infused with.

My SO and I have discussed the possibility of opening our relationship, so it’s nice to have people around here with experience in that area. I hope you don’t mind if I open a thread about it in future to ask some things. :slight_smile:

64

[QUOTE=WhyNot]
I don’t know either. But is it important?

There are people who are completely and utterly disgusted at the idea of raisins. Are they born anti-raisin? Is it important? As long as no one’s forcing anyone to eat raisins or not eat raisins, I just can’t bring myself to care.
[/quote]

Sure, that’s a great family. First you normalize polyamory, then you normalize raisins. Can’t we draw any lines about what’s normal and healthy?

For me, it’s mostly just curiosity. I have to admit that polyamory . . . unsettles me. I really wouldn’t enjoy it. I can’t wrap my head around it. (And I’d like to deck the dumbfucks who try to suggest that it’s “more evolved” or whatever, but I haven’t seen any of them here.) At any rate, it’s something that sort of puzzles me. I just can’t imagine being in a polyamorous relationship - so I have to wonder what it is that makes other people want it.

Like raisins. Raisins are abnormal and bad.

You make a very valid point, and this is something I’ve always seen as a bit of a strategic and political failure on the part of the gay rights movement. It doesn’t matter in and of itself whether something is “natural” or not, so much as whether it’s healthy. I know of no evidence that polyamory is inherently unhealthy, so I have to chalk my own discomfort with it up to the same sort of cultural beliefs that engender homophobia.
I guess my irritation over this whole lee dealie is that there’s some things about her family that seem troubling to me in ways entirely unrelated to polyamory or transgenderism, but I feel like I can’t even mention them because she has, as the link shows, tended to be defensive and to chalk up people’s confusion and honest curiosity to hatred on account of her life.

65

[QUOTE=Excalibre]

I guess my irritation over this whole lee dealie is that there’s some things about her family that seem troubling to me in ways entirely unrelated to polyamory or transgenderism, but I feel like I can’t even mention them because she has, as the link shows, tended to be defensive and to chalk up people’s confusion and honest curiosity to hatred on account of her life.
[/QUOTE]

That and both of them have a long habit of attacking first (usually very harshly) and asking questions later. When people act confused, instead of realizing that people just don’t understand what’s going on, they add 2+2, get 22, and assume that said person is attacking them and just go apeshit.

66

[QUOTE=John Corrado]
Except that for some people, relationship dynamics aren’t a choice either.
[/QUOTE]

Well…

I don’t know that I believe that, in the same way that I believe that sexual orientation isn’t a choice.

There are all sorts of things that people prefer, or dislike, or hate, or can’t stand the thought of. What sets orientation aside as something different? What makes polyamory the same? What makes any relationship ‘preference’ the same? What makes intense dislike of asparagus different?

Like I said, I’m not making any sort of judgment against polyamory, but I guess I’m just confused at where we draw the lines for ‘things that are not a choice, and just the way we are,’ and, ‘things we feel strongly about but choose.’

The idea of being in a loving relationship with more than one person is not so foreign to me that I couldn’t contemplate it (heck, I’d say that probably 70% of what would keep me from considering it is the social awkwardness and challenges it would pose), but then maybe that just puts me farther down the kinsey scale of monogamy-polyamory (though I don’t think it’s quite as dualist as all that).

If polyamory isn’t a choice, but a need, does that mean that a person can’t be happy unless he or she is in a relationship with more than one person?

67

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
I believe the law says the marriage partner is the legal parent, regardless of the bio dad’s wishes (or the marriage dad’s for that matter).

Lee’s account of her family arrangement has never come off as anything other than happy and loving. It works well for the four of them.
[/QUOTE]

The birth certificate states my daughter’s biological parents. It was a bit tough convincing the registrat of the reality of the situation. As far as custody issues, my understanding is that my husband is legally my daughter’s step father. Kelly and I are legally my daughter’s parents.

68

[QUOTE=Eonwe]
If polyamory isn’t a choice, but a need, does that mean that a person can’t be happy unless he or she is in a relationship with more than one person?
[/QUOTE]

Depends on the person.

I, personally, am at my most emotionally stable, secure, and able to support my relationships when I have two serious relationships. I have, over the years my husband and I have been together, had time periods in which I was only with him; at those times, I tended to be more prone to serious depression, more emotionally distant, and just generally less able to cope. (Also, when I have two such relationships, as far as I can tell, I stop being attracted to people.)

I know people who feel trapped in closed relationship systems. They tended to end relationships regularly, not because they were unhappy with the relationship itself, but because of basically a sort of emotional claustophobia. Several of those people are quite happy in superficially-appearing monogamous relationships – having the other partner doesn’t matter, just the option.

69

[QUOTE=Waverly]
I will buy you a drink in hell when I get there, provided they give me some time off being buggered by demons and all.

Excalibre, can’t you put a put a prophylactic on a woman cock before you get woman railed? A Trojaness, so to speak.
[/QUOTE]

Good joke, but you’re about 2500 years too late.

70

I have to admit that the lee/Mr. lee/KellyM combo is unusual even by the standards that regard GBLT and polyamory as reasonable options. But it works for them, and IMO that is what

71

This is meant to be funny, as it started as a Kids in the Hall joke. It is serious only in that Kelly is a woman and so her body and all its components (even those she would rater not have) belong to a woman, and so the phrase woman sperm applies. Despite the vitriol expressed over the phrase it still brings a smile to my face and in our house it is a pass phrase:
speaker 1: Woman sperm.
speaker 2: The very best kind.
Far more often just the phrase “The very best kind” is used to the rolled eyes and smiles of others who hear.

Now as far as choosing a woman even one who is MTF as a partner to reproduce I will admit is not the most obvious course, and indeed that was not my intention. I opened myself to the possibility of becoming involved with someone. That changed the way I let myself feel about people and the way I interacted. It was in that time KellyM and I fell in love. Once in love, I would no more dismiss her for perceived lack of fertility than I would my husband.

After KellyM settled in with us, I deliberately changed the way I interacted with other people, even withdrawing from places where I was more likely to flirt. I did not want any more new relationships while the three of us were learning how to get along. We all thought that her transition was far enough along that sadly children were not a possibility.

72

I am going to ask a question that frankly is none of my business, but since you opened this thread, I’ll go ahead. I’m curious as to the dynamics of your sexual relationship. Do all 3 of you have sex together? Does lee alternate partners? Do Kelly and lee’s husband ever have sex with each other? I’m just wondering how the sex part of this permanent 3 way relationship shakes out.

73

I admit to being perplexed by the whole polyamorous and polygamist ideology. It goes against my basic instincts when it comes to my relationship with my husband in a way that gay relationships do not. I am considering whether this is just my own perception or what.

I have questions that I admit I hesitate to ask for fear of coming across as judgemental. But the idea of bringing another person into my marriage goes against…everything I hold dear about my marriage. I honestly don’t know how people can possibly pull this off without hurt feelings.

I do personally know one couple who has an open marriage, although I admit I am not good friends with them. To me their marriage seems just sad. On their part, the husband is the only one who has other partners and it looks to me like a desperate action of the wife to hold on to him. He is very very condescending when talking to other people about their conventional marriages, and mocks my male friends whenever they want to go home early to their wives, or make a decision based on what would make their wife happy. I admit this has given me a very bad view of open marriage. His wife seems very unhappy although she does not admit to it. Now he has moved another woman into their home and the children are watching all this unfold. The way he treats his wife is the most reprehensible part of it to me, even though she says she is ok with is I cannot believe that anyone who has any self-esteem or self-respect would put up with the way he talks about her. I guess I have yet to see a case where everyone in the relationship seems to benefit mutually. I look at my own marriage and don’t see how that could be possible, and I am not a jealous person by nature but I do expect my husband to be devoted only to me.

Besides the obvious legal implications I just don’t see how one person could not be left out somehow. Threesomes are by nature a difficult balance, even in friendships. I also wonder in the case of the couple I know, what is the benefit for the third woman…she is not married to this man, never legally will be, the children are not hers, she has no legal reasons to stay, she is really very vulnerable. The only one who seems to be coming out ahead in all this is the husband, and I just have contempt for him for what I see as taking advantage of these two women, and contempt for the women for participating in what I can only see as a partial relationship. But I fully admit that is my prejudice. Maybe I am missing something.

My first knee-jerk reaction toward poly anything is that a man is trying to get something on the side. I think there is a reason why you don’t hear about women with 4 husbands. I fully expect now to get flamed for this view but I just can’t wrap my mind around this - I fear that most, as in 90% or more of these relationships result from one person being taken advantage of. My first thought when I hear about this is that “that woman must have zero self esteem to allow her husband to have another relationship like that.”

I am rambling now and hopefully I haven’t offended anyone. I just can’t see how allowing someone else into a marriage makes that marriage stronger. If I wanted relationships with many men I just would not have gotten married at all.

74

I’m completely confused in an open and accepting and nonjudgemental fashion:

Let’s see. You will be the mother. The other mother will be the father. The other father is your husband and the biological father will be his wife but your other husband. Between the three of you you will have to sets of tits, two penises, 4 balls, but only one vagina.

Your original husband is married to two women. You are married to two men, and KellyM is married to a man and a woman.
I suppose you think I think your arrangement is stange, but I live in a house with a wife and two daughters and my life is a hockey game.

3 periods. Lots of fighting.

75

Velma, your friend’s husband sounds like an ass. One thing’s for sure: I’ve never claimed polyamorists have any sort of moral superiority, or that we’re all good at this!

My only answer to most of the other points in your thread is: it isn’t like that for me. I know, it makes no sense to you. That’s okay. I don’t think I ever can make it make sense to you.

But, you know, I have some thoughts about my monogomous relationships that I don’t feel all that safe sharing, for fear of coming across as judgemental. When I bring them up, I’m accused of being anti-monogamist and holier-than-thou. No matter how often I insert the “in my experience” disclaimer, people asssume I’m bashing their relationships. And the answer is the same: I may never “get” monogamy. It just doesn’t make sense for me, because it’s not right for me. But it’s right for you, and for your husband, and that’s all that matters.

What don’t I get about monogamy? (Can we insert a blanket “in my experience” for this entire paragraph and spare my typing fingers, please?) I don’t get how one person is supposed to fufill all of my needs for my whole life, every second of every minute of every day. I don’t get how I’m supposed to do that for him. I don’t get how we can both grow as people if we’re constantly worried about being everything to each other. There’s times I don’t want to talk, or fuck, or watch a movie, and he really, really does. So good, he can talk, or fuck, or watch a movie with someone who does want to do that, rather than me feeling resentful for meeting his momentary needs instead of mine. I don’t get how people can turn off their attraction to other people after they get married. I see a nice ass, I appreciate it. I look at it, and occasionally I want to grab it with both hands and bite it! I don’t get how people can have friendships - real, deep, meaningful friendships, not acquaintances - that suddenly come to a screeching halt when some arbitrary line is crossed called “sexual”. I don’t want to worry all the time about where that line is - can we go have coffee alone? What about dinner? Is a hug okay? How about a clothed mouth kiss on the cheek? On the lips? Gah! It just seems so exhausting to be constantly on edge like that. I want to be free to cuddle, to stroke the arm, to kiss and be kissed, when the energy of a relationship takes me there. Even if we never have coitus, I don’t want to be second guessing myself all the time about if I’ve been unfaithful or leading someone on. I don’t get how love is a limited commodity. The more I love, the more love I have to give. It’s not like I love my husband less when I love someone else too. I don’t get why I should feel betrayed or unloved because my husband loves someone else. I don’t get why I should be angry with someone else for falling in love with a man that I myself fell in love with. Of course they fall in love with him - he’s a damn lovable person! I know that better than anyone!

And I know that you don’t feel that way. Intellectually, I know you disagree with everything in that paragraph, because you don’t feel the same way. That’s okay with me. I don’t need it rebutted, it’s how I feel in my life, not how you should feel in yours. You couldn’t effectively rebut it to me and more than I can rebut your feelings to you.

The next question I always, always get is, “So why get married at all?” The answer, for me, is that my husband feeds parts of my intellect, my heart and my soul no one else does. I want to spend the rest of my life with him, and I’ve never met anyone else I could seriously say that about. I think every married person knows that “feeling”, that sense that “I want to spend the rest of my life with this person” that marks this person as something different from all other boyfriends or girlfriends. The only thing different about us is that we don’t feel the addendum: “…and no one else.”

76

WhyNot, I’ve never been in a poly relationship before, yet I find what you have to say beautiful.

77

[QUOTE=WhyNot]
I don’t know either. But is it important?
[/QUOTE]
I don’t know…maybe it isn’t. Honestly, I’m just trying to understand it, because it is so against my nature & experience.

Well, this is not how I feel at all. My attitude towards life is that if you can live the way you want to without hurting anyone else, then, hey, that’s your perogative. My issue is more trying to figure out (based on what I have learned from these threads so far), what being poly really IS (apparently, very different things to different people), and what thought process & reasons a person might have for living that way (again, apparently there are a range of reasons that I never would have even imagined).

This is my feeling, too.

WhyNot, I really hope you do not feel that I am asking you to defend yourself. I specifically mentioned in the other thread that I want to avoid insulting you or making you feel defensive. I honestly am trying to understand, that’s all.

78

[QUOTE=Guinastasia]
That and both of them have a long habit of attacking first (usually very harshly) and asking questions later. When people act confused, instead of realizing that people just don’t understand what’s going on, they add 2+2, get 22, and assume that said person is attacking them and just go apeshit.
[/QUOTE]
Amen to that. Anyone who explains anything using the phrase “woman sperm” and doesn’t explain what that is supposed to mean, should REALLY not be surprised when people don’t get what the heck they are talking about. And CERTAINLY should not get offended that people think it sounds a little…strange. Even in the OP here, I totally did not get what she was trying to say. It’s a LITTLE unfair to make a claim that wanting a child made you poly, without a little more background/explanation, and expect that people will take that at face value.

79

[QUOTE=lee]
This is meant to be funny, as it started as a Kids in the Hall joke. It is serious only in that Kelly is a woman and so her body and all its components (even those she would rater not have) belong to a woman, and so the phrase woman sperm applies.
[/QUOTE]

No, it doesn’t. On a message board “Fighting Ignorance Since 1973”, “woman sperm” is positively ludicrous.

80

[QUOTE=WhyNot]
Velma, your friend’s husband sounds like an ass.

[/quote]
Well then we do agree about that :slight_smile:

[quote=]
One thing’s for sure: I’ve never claimed polyamorists have any sort of moral superiority, or that we’re all good at this!

My only answer to most of the other points in your thread is: it isn’t like that for me. I know, it makes no sense to you. That’s okay. I don’t think I ever can make it make sense to you.
[/quote]

I don’t take offense and hopefully others don’t take offense to me. Like you said, my relationship works and I don’t have to justify that to others. If nothing else, I can understand that feeling coming from your perspective, too.

[quote=]
But, you know, I have some thoughts about my monogomous relationships that I don’t feel all that safe sharing, for fear of coming across as judgemental. When I bring them up, I’m accused of being anti-monogamist and holier-than-thou. No matter how often I insert the “in my experience” disclaimer, people asssume I’m bashing their relationships. And the answer is the same: I may never “get” monogamy. It just doesn’t make sense for me, because it’s not right for me. But it’s right for you, and for your husband, and that’s all that matters.

What don’t I get about monogamy? (Can we insert a blanket “in my experience” for this entire paragraph and spare my typing fingers, please?) I don’t get how one person is supposed to fufill all of my needs for my whole life, every second of every minute of every day.
[/quote]

I guess to answer this I would say…we aren’t everything to each other at all times at every minute. I think that is a big mistake though that lots of people do go into marriage believing and that is a common reason why relationships fail. I do expect my husband to have other friendships (he is out right now with his friends, I didn’t feel like going out but I encourage him to go if he wants) and other people to confide in. I don’t think I am going to be all things to him at all times, but I do expect to be the most important person in his life and vice versa. If someone else wants him to go one way and I want us to go another, I expect him to give more weight to me and what is good for our marriage.

[quote=]
I don’t get how I’m supposed to do that for him. I don’t get how we can both grow as people if we’re constantly worried about being everything to each other. There’s times I don’t want to talk, or fuck, or watch a movie, and he really, really does. So good, he can talk, or fuck, or watch a movie with someone who does want to do that, rather than me feeling resentful for meeting his momentary needs instead of mine. I don’t get how people can turn off their attraction to other people after they get married. I see a nice ass, I appreciate it. I look at it, and occasionally I want to grab it with both hands and bite it! I don’t get how people can have friendships - real, deep, meaningful friendships, not acquaintances - that suddenly come to a screeching halt when some arbitrary line is crossed called “sexual”. I don’t want to worry all the time about where that line is - can we go have coffee alone? What about dinner? Is a hug okay? How about a clothed mouth kiss on the cheek? On the lips? Gah! It just seems so exhausting to be constantly on edge like that. I want to be free to cuddle, to stroke the arm, to kiss and be kissed, when the energy of a relationship takes me there. Even if we never have coitus, I don’t want to be second guessing myself all the time about if I’ve been unfaithful or leading someone on. I don’t get how love is a limited commodity. The more I love, the more love I have to give. It’s not like I love my husband less when I love someone else too. I don’t get why I should feel betrayed or unloved because my husband loves someone else. I don’t get why I should be angry with someone else for falling in love with a man that I myself fell in love with. Of course they fall in love with him - he’s a damn lovable person! I know that better than anyone!
[/quote]

I get this, I guess we just see the line in a different place. I still think you have a line somewhere though, or you wouldn’t have married him at all. I just want us to be sexually exclusive because I see sex as an expression of our deepest connection to each other - it is enjoyable physically but much more than that, to me, is the expression of our commitment and spiritual connectedness. Sex is connected to those things for me and so to picture him having sex with someone else is to picture him breaking that connection with me. It’s not that I don’t think other people are lovable or that it would be impossible for me to love anyone else, it’s just that I think loving someone that way is a choice - I choose to love my husband that way and no one else. I am friends with other men and he is friends with other women but we put priority on each other.

[quote=]
And I know that you don’t feel that way. Intellectually, I know you disagree with everything in that paragraph, because you don’t feel the same way. That’s okay with me. I don’t need it rebutted, it’s how I feel in my life, not how you should feel in yours. You couldn’t effectively rebut it to me and more than I can rebut your feelings to you.

The next question I always, always get is, “So why get married at all?” The answer, for me, is that my husband feeds parts of my intellect, my heart and my soul no one else does. I want to spend the rest of my life with him, and I’ve never met anyone else I could seriously say that about.
[/quote]

this is the common thread we have, then. For us it is just that because my husband and I feel that way, we don’t want to jeopardize that by bringing someone else into the relationship. That other person would inevitably be a “lesser” person in the realationship and I can’t think of any reason to do that other than sexual gratification, and in the case of my husband and myself anyway, if one of us is lacking then we talk about it. I do understand that in some relationships, (not saying yours, just that looking at monogomous people as a whole I can definitely see why it looks like a crappy idea!) people are unyielding and so I can see why sticking with just one person forever would seem impossible. That is not to say our marriage is easy or perfect, far from it. Marriage is hard work, I just feel like bringing in another person would make it even harder becuase that person’s feelings count too. And I couldn’t honestly tell another man I love him the way I love my husband, and if all I want is sex I can get that from my husband anyway.

[quote=]
I think every married person knows that “feeling”, that sense that “I want to spend the rest of my life with this person” that marks this person as something different from all other boyfriends or girlfriends. The only thing different about us is that we don’t feel the addendum: “…and no one else.”
[/QUOTE]

For me that quote ends …“so why anyone else?”