Three parents

The BBQ Pit
81

[QUOTE=Weirddave]
I am going to ask a question that frankly is none of my business, but since you opened this thread, I’ll go ahead. I’m curious as to the dynamics of your sexual relationship. Do all 3 of you have sex together? Does lee alternate partners? Do Kelly and lee’s husband ever have sex with each other? I’m just wondering how the sex part of this permanent 3 way relationship shakes out.
[/QUOTE]

I, lee, have sexual relationships with my husband and KellyM, but not both at once as a general rule. My husband does not have a sexual relationship with KellyM mainly as she has expressed the opinion that the thought of having sex with a man is icky. He thinks she is pretty. Not having sex with her doesn’t bother him much at all though, probably because he is not keen on her incongruous bits and he frankly has just about all he can handle with me and then some.

82

I am married to my husband, there are no other marriages in this household. Being married to more than one person is against the law and we abide by that law.

83

[QUOTE=Velma]
But the idea of bringing another person into my marriage goes against…everything I hold dear about my marriage. I honestly don’t know how people can possibly pull this off without hurt feelings.
[/quote]

I don’t ‘bring another person into my marriage’; I find the concept vile. My marriage is about me and my husband, period. Nobody else’s business, nobody else’s territory.

Similarly, my relationship with my other partner is about him and me. It is not my husband’s; the time and resources for it come out of my private time and resources. It is not in any way shared property – not with my husband, not with my boyfriend’s other partner, not with any other random person.

I am extremely territorial, to say the least – I defend what’s mine. At the same time, I have a very strong sense of what isn’t mine.

People get left out of things all the time. My husband goes to work for most of the day, I’m left out of that part of his life. He’s out with friends tonight, I’m not. My ex was really into model car building, and would go out and hang with friends and do that or even take weekend trips to model car conventions. I was left out there too.

I don’t see a meaningful difference between “I don’t get this time with you because you’re with your girlfriend” and “I don’t get this time with you because you’re taking classes in grad school” and “I don’t get this time with you because you have family obligations that have you out of touch this week” and “I don’t get this time with you because you’re having your kazoo lesson.” In practical terms, I care about whether or not the time and energy I get in a relationship are sufficient to support that relationship.

Well, frankly, the guy there doesn’t exactly sound like a prize.

But the “she can’t get a marriage out of it, what could she be getting” parses to me as … taking marriage as a way of keeping score. What happened to being with someone one cares about because one wants to be with them, share their life, support them and be supported? I think that’s the basis on which a marriage is built, and that’s far more important to me than a certificate filed by a JP.

Last time I counted (which was a while ago) I knew more women for whom some sort of open relationship was non-negotiable than men with the same ground rule. It was difficult for my husband to deal with, though he didn’t tell me at the time; I have had a relationship other than with him far more consistently than he has, though he currently has more relationships than I do. (Which confuses him immensely. He and his long-distance girlfriend occasionally mutter to each other, “But we’re the monogamous ones!”)

84

[QUOTE=WhyNot]
The next question I always, always get is, “So why get married at all?” The answer, for me, is that my husband feeds parts of my intellect, my heart and my soul no one else does. I want to spend the rest of my life with him, and I’ve never met anyone else I could seriously say that about. I think every married person knows that “feeling”, that sense that “I want to spend the rest of my life with this person” that marks this person as something different from all other boyfriends or girlfriends. The only thing different about us is that we don’t feel the addendum: “…and no one else.”
[/QUOTE]

My answer to that one always starts with being baffled by the question.

My husband and I love each other, support each other, are committed to each other, are each other’s partners for the long run. We’re family, y’know? I don’t see why that shouldn’t be marked with a marriage, because that’s pretty much how most everyone else I know bases their marriages.

The best argument I’ve seen for not getting married is that I can’t offer a legal partnership to my other partner, that this is, basically, unfair. I agree that it’s unfair, but I can’t bring myself to see denying someone a commitment just because I can’t grant some of the trappings attached to that commitment by others with it.

I will probably wind up asking my boyfriend to marry me at some point. (We’ve talked about it; for various reasons, neither of us is ready for it now.) So we can’t get the certificate and the JP; we can throw a hell of a party, make our vows to each other, and plant an apple tree.

85

[QUOTE=lee]
Now as far as choosing a woman even one who is MTF as a partner to reproduce I will admit is not the most obvious course, and indeed that was not my intention. I opened myself to the possibility of becoming involved with someone. That changed the way I let myself feel about people and the way I interacted. It was in that time KellyM and I fell in love. Once in love, I would no more dismiss her for perceived lack of fertility than I would my husband.
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So in fact turning poly had nothing to do with intending to conceive, in direct contradiction of post #1. As long as that’s straightened out.

[QUOTE=lee]
Now as far as choosing a woman even one who is MTF as a partner to reproduce I will admit is not the most obvious course,
[/quote]

:dubious: :rolleyes: :smack: :confused: :eek:

86

[QUOTE=Malacandra]
:dubious: :rolleyes: :smack: :confused: :eek:
[/QUOTE]

You need some ice for your facial muscles after that workout?

87

[QUOTE=lee]
The birth certificate states my daughter’s biological parents. It was a bit tough convincing the registrat of the reality of the situation. As far as custody issues, my understanding is that my husband is legally my daughter’s step father. Kelly and I are legally my daughter’s parents.
[/QUOTE]

That makes sense under your particular circumstance. I saw a thing on TV about a woman who became pregnant outside the marriage (when all parties weren’t playing nice) and the husband was required to pay child support after he decided to leave her due to her indiscretion.

88

Basic questions:

how do you know who is the father of any offspring? (not just the OP’s case, but all).
Who pays child support when this idyllic hedonistic picture fades?
And lastly, what happened to “forsaking all others?”

I swear I am liberal, but I can feel the drum beats of the conservatives getting louder for me.

Please do not expect me to applaud or admire any of this polyamorous activity. However, I do strive to broaden my knowledge base.

And I still count this Kelly stuff as 2 males and 2 females–I cannot figure the scenario out. 1 male is now female, or mostly female–s/he must be the one who impregnated the OP. The OP has a fully male husband and isn’t there another full female somewhere? Or am I missing something?

To me, unconventional does not equal bad or wrong. Lack of commitment and lack of self-control, do. If you feel you don’t have those last two, then they don’t apply to you.

89

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
Basic questions:

how do you know who is the father of any offspring? (not just the OP’s case, but all).
Who pays child support when this idyllic hedonistic picture fades?
And lastly, what happened to “forsaking all others?”

I swear I am liberal, but I can feel the drum beats of the conservatives getting louder for me.

Please do not expect me to applaud or admire any of this polyamorous activity. However, I do strive to broaden my knowledge base.

And I still count this Kelly stuff as 2 males and 2 females–I cannot figure the scenario out. 1 male is now female, or mostly female–s/he must be the one who impregnated the OP. The OP has a fully male husband and isn’t there another full female somewhere? Or am I missing something?

To me, unconventional does not equal bad or wrong. Lack of commitment and lack of self-control, do. If you feel you don’t have those last two, then they don’t apply to you.
[/QUOTE]

There’s no lack of commitment or lack of self control. And where did youget the “forsaking others” part? I don’t recall Lee saying that was part of her marriage vows.

90

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
Please do not expect me to applaud or admire any of this polyamorous activity. However, I do strive to broaden my knowledge base.
[/QUOTE]

You know, I have to say that while my feelings towards polyamory are lukewarm, I recognize that it’s not really my place to applaud or condemn it. You might keep that in mind. I’ve noticed something funny - my best efforts to justify my own discomfort with polyamory sound a lot like conservatives attempting to explain why being gay is a bad thing. It’s actually food for thought; makes me a bit more sympathetic towards people who are anti-gay but can’t come up with anything beyond their feelings - their feelings are still very real, just as yours are towards polyamory.

91

In my case, I chose to be celibate for three months before conceiving so my husband could be assured that our daughter is his biologically.

Legally or ethically? Legally, whoever the child’s “parents” are - the ones listed on the birth certificate, on adoption papers, on the DNA test or on the marriage certificate, depending on the state you’re in and how they determine parenthood. Some states do presuppose that all the children born within the time span of the marriage are the husband’s, and he’s the legal parent.

Ethically? Whomever agreed to be a parent. That would include any biological parents, as well as any nonbiological parents. If one part of a triad left after agreeing to be a parent, I’d expect them to pay child support and demand visitation rights, same as any parent.

Personally? My husband and I have agreed that if he gets another woman pregnant, despite our constant use of birth control, then we will abide by her wishes. Ideally, we’ll all be involved in the child’s life, as if I’m the step-mother in a divorce and remarriage scenario. And, of course, we’d pay child support. If I get pregnant by someone else, we’ll raise the baby as our own and encourage visitation by the biodad. The child will be raised knowing his or her biological and social fathers. If the biodad wants nothing to do with the child, I’ll be saddened, but the child will still know that my husband is not his biological child, as I don’t want any messy “I’m your real dad - your mother’s been lying to you all these years!” encounters if the biodad grows a conscience. I don’t see this as any different from my existing son, who was born before I met my husband. He knows his DNA came from someone else, but my husband is his father.

“Forsaking all others” was not part of my marriage vows, either. I don’t remember them exactly, because they were not planned out or written down, but spoken from the heart in the moment, but they included communication, love, support, and making a physical and emotional home for my husband (an avid traveller) and children to come home to with appreciation and respect. They also included a vow to support one another in our pursuit of outside interests (we weren’t necessarily talking about other people at that point, but hobbies, interests, passions, etc.) and our growth as spiritual beings, both together and separately.

And here we agree.

92

Uh…da hell? :smack:

“but the child will still know that my husband is not his biological father”, of course!

93

Well, what still has me confused is that you supposedly made this rather large lifestyle change in order to produce a baby and you gave up after one attempt (ISTM dating a lesbian in a man’s body is gving up on producing a baby. right/wrong?). It just doesn’t sound like you are being honest with yourself as to your motives for the switch to poly.

I guess it’s a lucky thing that your happy surprise came along or I could imagine husband #1 feeling mightily ripped off by the deal. Glad it all worked out for you.

94

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
how do you know who is the father of any offspring? (not just the OP’s case, but all).
Who pays child support when this idyllic hedonistic picture fades?
And lastly, what happened to “forsaking all others?”
[/QUOTE]

First question: Part one, biology: My boyfriend and I are agreed on using barrier birth control when I’m trying to conceive with my husband; I may wind up not having sex with him at all for that time period. Should boyfriend and I wish to have a child, the same stuff would be put in place, only reversed.

Part two, parenting: My husband is of the opinion that any child of mine is his – that parenting is far more about commitment to raise the kid than biological contribution. We talked over the possibility of me having children that weren’t ‘his’ probably ten years ago and that was his opinion then; every so often we revisit to make sure it’s still his opinion.

Part three, parenting redux: My boyfriend and I have discussed what his role towards my children will be, but only in a sort of meta sense (in which I informed him that when it was closer to relevant, I would need to know what he was comfortable with). I’m going to want to get that clarified before my husband and I start research and development for offspring, but since I’m still on the pill and will be until next summer, getting that matter sorted out is not urgent to me. Boyfriend wants to get his life in order before he has such commitments; I’ll give him as much time as I can.

Second question: “idyllic hedonistic”? That would be nice. I’m sort of entertained by the clear fantasy la-la land image of marriage it suggests, though.

My husband has taken on legal responsibility for any of my children; that is part of the consequences of being married, and something we discussed ahead of time. I imagine that should my boyfriend be on a birth certificate as father, he would also have responsibility according to the law.

Third question: Didn’t have a Christian wedding, being not Christian and all. Not sure why I should care about a promise I never made; it’s not my problem.

95

[QUOTE=Malacandra]
KellyM is a woman too. Haven’t you been paying attention?

(Granted that she possesses the reproductive apparatus more traditionally associated with being male, and is the bio-parent of the child to whom the OP refers, we have been over all this ground quite thoroughly before.)
[/QUOTE]

No, actually this means KellyM is a man. Just because someone with a mental illness says they are something they quite clearly are not does not make it so. I’ve had encounters with mentally ill persons who thought they could fly, or were secret agents for the government, neither of which was true, and both of which are just as false as saying KellyM is a woman.

96

[QUOTE=Martin Hyde]
No, actually this means KellyM is a man. Just because someone with a mental illness says they are something they quite clearly are not does not make it so. I’ve had encounters with mentally ill persons who thought they could fly, or were secret agents for the government, neither of which was true, and both of which are just as false as saying KellyM is a woman.
[/QUOTE]

Being transgendered is not a mental illness. KellyM was born a physical male. In all other respects, she is female.

97

[QUOTE=lee]
I, lee, have sexual relationships with my husband and KellyM, but not both at once as a general rule. My husband does not have a sexual relationship with KellyM mainly as she has expressed the opinion that the thought of having sex with a man is icky. He thinks she is pretty. Not having sex with her doesn’t bother him much at all though, probably because he is not keen on her incongruous bits and he frankly has just about all he can handle with me and then some.
[/QUOTE]

In other words, your husband isn’t into gay sex.

98

[QUOTE=GingerOfTheNorth]
Being transgendered is not a mental illness. KellyM was born a physical male. In all other respects, she is female.
[/QUOTE]

What other respects are there? If gender isn’t defined by physical characteristics and chromosomes then what else is there? Not that gender dysmorphia is a mental illness but people don’t have to get so sanctimonious and offended if other people think a guy in a dress is just a guy in a dress. The physical aspect is the defining component for how most people define gender, so don’t be surprised if not everybody is able to instantly comprehend and buy into a more abstract definition. No one else has any moral duty to alter their perceptions, nor are they objectively “wrong” in those perceptions. It’s just a different definition.

I have to admit, the phrase “woman sperm” makes me roll my eyes a little. It’s just sperm, ok?

99

“Woman sperm” is the stupidest phrase I’ve ever heard. “Woman” refers to gender, which is a social construct. Sex is biological concept and, unless I am grossly misinformed, sperm is always male. While there are female creatures that have penes, there are no female creatures that make sperm.

100

[QUOTE=Martin Hyde]
No, actually this means KellyM is a man. Just because someone with a mental illness says they are something they quite clearly are not does not make it so. I’ve had encounters with mentally ill persons who thought they could fly, or were secret agents for the government, neither of which was true, and both of which are just as false as saying KellyM is a woman.
[/QUOTE]

There’s one key difference. If you go to a doctor and say, “I think I’m really a woman,” there are quite a few doctors out there who will perscribe hormones and, eventually, surgery to make you into a woman. If you go to a doctor and say, “I think I can fly,” they aren’t going to give you a cape, take you up to the roof, and say “Go for it, dude!”

In other words, while you might want to insist, for your own religious/social reasons, that transgendered people are mentally ill, the people actually involved in diagnosing and treating mental illness would disagree with you.