[QUOTE=GingerOfTheNorth]
Being transgendered is not a mental illness.
[/QUOTE]
I have no dog in this fight, but some (many? most?) mental health professionals think it is. Granted, there is considerable debate in the psychiatric community over whether it should or should not be considered as such, but there you have it. To state outright that it isn’t is a bit disingenuous, don’t you agree?
ok, I have a feeling this thread is about to take a very ugly turn, so I am not getting into the gender issues part of it.
I was thinking about this some more last night and I don’t get how you can have an emotional, physical relationship with another person and have that not interfere with your marriage. When I think about the time most people spend dating and getting to know someone before marrying them, and all the fighting and making up and all that, it is a lot of work. Then, when you get married, it is a lot of work to maintain that level of trust and emotional connectedness. Having another relationship and spending time thinking about that person and how to make them happy is different then spending time away from your spouse because you play on the softball league or whatever.
If you have a fight with your spouse, do you talk about it with your ‘other?’ Vice versa - if your other person pissed you off do you talk to your spouse about it? What about when you break up with your other person or they don’t want to see you anymore?
Dating and starting a new relationship takes up a lot of time and emotional space. When you are newly falling in love or lust with someone else, that giddy feeling of wanting to be with them all the time, how can that not affect your spouse? If you and your spouse are having problems, I don’t see how adding another person would help that. If you are not having problems (and I think that most people in this thread would say that is the case) then what are you looking for that you can’t find in your spouse.
I get the concept of dating for fun and not wanting a serious relationship, but once you choose that you do want to be with someone forever, I don’t see the benefit of continuing to date other people (ok, I see why people have affairs, I am talking about relationships that are supposed to be for everyone’s mutual benefit.)
If you just intend to have casual relationships with other people, what happens if you do fall in love with them. Do you introduce them to your family, your kids, your friends? If so, how does everyone (especially kids) understand that? If not, doesn’t the other person inevitably feel like not a full member of the relationship?
The one thing that does appeal to me is having another person to help watch the kids and contribute to the income - hey in this economy 3 parent households make some sense 
But I guess I would just take on a boarder or get a nanny before I would consider that.
I just can’t imagine keeping everyone feeling equal and happy - emotions are too tied up with sex for me. Not long term, anyway. And short-term flings are too emotionally rocky and tiring after a while.
[QUOTE=Velma]
I was thinking about this some more last night and I don’t get how you can have an emotional, physical relationship with another person and have that not interfere with your marriage.
[/quote]
Fortunately, you don’t have to. I don’t understand how you can have an emotional, spiritual relationship with a mythological figure, but people all over the world live a lifestyle which they cannot comprehend without that relationship.
I can’t imagine wanting to become a nun or a proctologist or an Amerocan Idol contestent. Fortunately, the world is a diverse place full of diverse personalities.
A guy once told me he “[didn’t] believe in bisexuality,” but that didn’t make me suddenly vanish.
[QUOTE=Q.E.D.]
I have no dog in this fight, but some (many? most?) mental health professionals think it is. Granted, there is considerable debate in the psychiatric community over whether it should or should not be considered as such, but there you have it. To state outright that it isn’t is a bit disingenuous, don’t you agree?
[/QUOTE]
I am incorrect in the strictest sense. I should have said something to the effect that being homosexual was once considered a mental illness but we have since learned otherwise. Evolution in the medical sciences is a good thing, IMHO.
[QUOTE=Miller]
There’s one key difference. If you go to a doctor and say, “I think I’m really a woman,” there are quite a few doctors out there who will perscribe hormones and, eventually, surgery to make you into a woman. If you go to a doctor and say, “I think I can fly,” they aren’t going to give you a cape, take you up to the roof, and say “Go for it, dude!”
In other words, while you might want to insist, for your own religious/social reasons, that transgendered people are mentally ill, the people actually involved in diagnosing and treating mental illness would disagree with you.
[/QUOTE]
I’m aware of all of this. And I think gender reassignment surgeries are simply allowing a mentally ill person to live out their solutions. It’s a solution that fails to treat the illness of the mind and instead takes a half-measure, treatment by altering the delusional person’s body to fit what their diseased mind “thinks” their body is supposed to be.
I don’t necessarily oppose gender reassignment surgery, at least not until we find a way to cure the root problem with the person’s brain, it’s often one of the only ways to stop suicides in these types of people. But that doesn’t mean I’m going to call someone something they are not. A male is a male and a female is a female. Two X chromosomes = woman, an X and a Y equals a man (yes, I’m aware not everyone is like this, assume I’m speaking generally and am not talking about people with physical traits of both genders.)
Humans are mammals. Mammalian males and females share certain things in common. For me to call a given mammal a female it needs to have things like mammary glands, ovaries, a womb, the ability (sans medical defect) to carry a child within said womb while it develops biologically into a functioning organism.
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde]
But that doesn’t mean I’m going to call someone something they are not.
[/QUOTE]
Neither am I-you are an asshole of the highest calibur.
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde]
I’m aware of all of this. And I think gender reassignment surgeries are simply allowing a mentally ill person to live out their solutions. It’s a solution that fails to treat the illness of the mind and instead takes a half-measure, treatment by altering the delusional person’s body to fit what their diseased mind “thinks” their body is supposed to be.
[/QUOTE]
Edit for clarity: the bolded word should have been “delusions” not “solutions.”
[QUOTE=Guinastasia]
Neither am I-you are an asshole of the highest calibur.
[/QUOTE]
golf clap
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde]
I’m aware of all of this. And I think gender reassignment surgeries are simply allowing a mentally ill person to live out their solutions. It’s a solution that fails to treat the illness of the mind and instead takes a half-measure, treatment by altering the delusional person’s body to fit what their diseased mind “thinks” their body is supposed to be.
I don’t necessarily oppose gender reassignment surgery, at least not until we find a way to cure the root problem with the person’s brain, it’s often one of the only ways to stop suicides in these types of people. But that doesn’t mean I’m going to call someone something they are not. A male is a male and a female is a female. Two X chromosomes = woman, an X and a Y equals a man (yes, I’m aware not everyone is like this, assume I’m speaking generally and am not talking about people with physical traits of both genders.)
Humans are mammals. Mammalian males and females share certain things in common. For me to call a given mammal a female it needs to have things like mammary glands, ovaries, a womb, the ability (sans medical defect) to carry a child within said womb while it develops biologically into a functioning organism.
[/QUOTE]
Why do you think a “better” solution is necessary? In what way, precisely, is gender reassignment surgery an insufficient remedy? Why is it necessary, in your view, for transgedered people to be made to accept the body they were born into?
[QUOTE=Miller]
Why do you think a “better” solution is necessary? In what way, precisely, is gender reassignment surgery an insufficient remedy? Why is it necessary, in your view, for transgedered people to be made to accept the body they were born into?
[/QUOTE]
For the same reason schizophrenics should be made to realize their hallucinations are not real.
People shouldn’t have to live with a mental illness, and doctors should be working to find a way to fix it that isn’t just telling them “well, go live out your delusions.” Once a fix is found that doesn’t involved mutilation, I wouldn’t say doctors or anyone would have a right to force that fix on anyone, however I would say that doctors should be prohibited from further performing gender reassignent surgery because doctors should not be allowed to mutilate patients.
Martin Hyde, what about intersexed people? Not all women are born with wombs you know. Should a person who has always identified as female and was brought up as female suddenly go through HRT and SRS because it is discovered that she has XY chromosomes? What about an individual who has XX chromosomes, yet due to a medical condition, ended up with a penis? Should she be allowed to transition?
Male and female do not exist as black and white but rather as gray. I realize that is an unsettling thought, but it is true. Sometimes people are born in between and I believe that not only is it their right to go to a sex they indentify as, but that we should help them do so. There is plenty of scientific evidence for transgendered individuals. This does not mean that all individuals who identify as transgendered actually have a scientific reason as to why they are transgendered. Right now, we don’t have the science to prove who is “real” and who isn’t in all of the cases because there are some conditions that aren’t dectable unless you know exactly what you are looking for. This is why there is the lengthy psychological/medical transitioning process.
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde]
A male is a male and a female is a female. Two X chromosomes = woman, an X and a Y equals a man (yes, I’m aware not everyone is like this, assume I’m speaking generally and am not talking about people with physical traits of both genders.)
[/QUOTE]
That’s idiotic. You just yourself said that not everyone falls under this rubric. NOT EVERYONE FALLS UNDER THIS RUBRIC.
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde]
For the same reason schizophrenics should be made to realize their hallucinations are not real.
[/quote]
I don’t think it’s the same reason at all. Schizophrenic hallucinations often make it impossible for the schizophrenic to function in society, and sometimes make them dangerous to other people around them. Their hallucinations are often terrifying in nature. Schizophrenics are treated so that they can live a happier, more fulfilling life. Not so that they can fit into your preconception of “normal.” The only similtude here is that transgendered people also get treated so that they can live a happier, more fulfilling life. If gender reassignment meets that goal, why do we need a different solution? What’s wrong with the one we have, if it works?
What’s delusional about transgenderism? Most TGs seem to be very well aware of the reality of their situation. They were born with the biology of one gender, but would really rather have the biology of the other gender. What’s delusional about that? What observable, objective reality is being denied by that transgendered person?
Okay, rather than paying attention to what Prick First Class Martin Hyde has to say – do we really need to go down that route again? – I think I’ll lighten the mood by sharing what’s apparently the genesis of lee’s notorious ‘woman sperm’ comment. Being a Kids in the Hall obsessive, I recognized the phrase at once. It’s from KiTH’s fifth season.
The scene is a sperm bank laboratory in the dead of night. Three PC militants – two guys (Mark McKinney and Scott Thompson) and a very butch gal Shona (Bruce McCullough) have broken into the lab wielding bags of tools and flashlights. The two guys are extremely intense; Shona tends to be harsh and intense.
Shona: Do we have all the necessary tools for the procreation ceremony?
Mark: Candles and incense!
Scott: Ritualistc drum. Turkey baster!
Shona: Good.
Mark: Right.
Mark and Scott: Let’s rob the sperm bank!
(The three look around for sperm)
Shona: It’s not robbery! Paying for sperm is reverse prostitution!
Mark and Scott: Yes!
Shona: Is it not fair that I come and take what I want from the man in the dead of the night?
Mark and Scott: Yes!
Shona: Isn’t that what he’s been doing to me and my sisters since time began?
Mark and Scott: Yes!
Shona: Even though I believe prostitution should be legalized.
Mark: And ganja.
Scott: And hash.
Shona: And jaywalking.
Mark: And bumper hitching.
Scott: And letting your dog off the leash in public parks!
Mark: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Shona: Stop it, stop it. We are not going to solve all the world’s problems here tonight. But my hope is that I can get some A-1 sperm so Arlene and I can increase our family unit!
Mark: Oh! (he finds a vial of sperm) Sperm!
Scott: Sperm! But what kind of sperm, Shona? There are so many types here.
Shona: What kind of sperm do I want? (Music plays. Guys crouch down.) I want the sperm of the free. And the brave. I want the sperm of the not-yet-free and the not-yet-brave. I want the sperm of the working class, of the oppressed, of the flat-footed, of the sunken-chested…
Mark: That sounds like us.
(Guys get up and start to open their pants.)
Scott: Yeah.
Mark: Yeah.
Shona: But you are male!
Mark and Scott: (Chastened) Oh. We feel ashamed.
(snip)
Mark: Well, what then?
Shona: Women’s sperm!
Scott: Yes!
Mark: Yes!
Shona: Yes!
Scott: (with just as much enthusiasm) No!
Mark: No.
Shona: No?
Mark: Well, there’s no such thing, Shona.
Shona: Not yet.
Mark and Scott: Yes!
Shona: I will have to yield to the limitations of biology. Man’s sperm will have to do.
Mark and Scott: Great choice, sister!
That’s just a snippet of the skit. Anyway, I thought it’d be illuminating. I think the phrase is hilarious. The problem came with lee’s dogged insistance on justifying the phrase; if she’d just said “well, not really woman sperm, it’s just a funny line from KiTH that we use,” the whole trainwreck would never have started. Then again, we wouldn’t have had a hysterical thread to enjoy, so I guess it’s better off this way. Everyone’s a winner!
kimera, there are, however, male ovaries
:eek:
Fuck…I am so happy I am not drinking that water (I drink bottled water, anyway but now I’m loathe to make my tea out of tap water).
[QUOTE=Guinastasia]
Neither am I-you are an asshole of the highest calibur.
[/QUOTE]
Just wondering, do you ever have something valuable to add that actually contributes to the discussion? I don’t agree with Martin either but he is being polite, has clearly given this a lot of thought and is trying to understand. You probably think that you’re really cool being so open minded at all but you’re doing more to help the “opposition” than if you would just refrain from posting every ten seconds unless you have something intelligent to say.
As I think Miller is getting at, it’s irrelvant if transgenderism is a mental disorder or if it is a legitimate point on the normal continuum of the human condition. You could say that it’s not normal, in my opinion, in the same way that color blindness is not normal. Maybe one day we will find the bit in the brain that can be switched the other way if such a thing exists and then people will have a choice. Until then, if surgery or just dressing the part gives them the peace that they need to become a productive and happy member of society, who are we to throw stones.
Just image what effect that water is having on the local human population. Will more intersexed/transgendered babies be born in that area? I bet so. And for those who want to see a female’s penis looks like check this out. Imagine trying to give birth through that thing. :eek:
You don’t have to tell me. I really wanted to be an environmental lawyer and was in the last stages of getting an honors clerkship to the EPA but they passed me over :(. (now I structure money transfers)
I used to do a lot of projects on CWA stuff, though, and still keep up with it as a hobby.
[QUOTE=Velma]
If you have a fight with your spouse, do you talk about it with your ‘other?’ Vice versa - if your other person pissed you off do you talk to your spouse about it?
[/quote]
Sometimes; that’s what friends are there for, aren’t they?
I don’t just provide support for my partners’ other relationships, but for everyone I know. I’ve listened to a friend kvetching about her husband’s online gaming habits; I’ve provided support for another whose partner leaves dishes in her half of the office. I’m emotionally supporting someone through a divorce right now.
I also spent a while this weekend talking to my boyfriend about how some issues in his relationship with his other partner are echoing around the curve to me, because nobody else had the balls to talk to him about it. (Also, he and I have an agreement that I don’t want to hear about his domestic disputes if talking about them doesn’t help him. Every so often when I think he’s venting unproductively I ask, “Is this helping?” If it is, he goes on; if it isn’t, he shuts up. I’m not part of their relationship, so if I can’t help, I’m not comfortable being dragged into it.)
Then that sucks. Doesn’t differ from having a falling-out with a close friend and having them never want to see one anymore, particularly, in its suckitude, unless there was some sort of support they were providing that has suddenly gone absent. (Frankly, in my recent breakup with my ex, the support in question had long since gone absent, and I was better off without the emotional drain of the relationship.)
Most people have agreements and considerations to deal with the pink fluffy stupids period. Many people will establish dates with established partners in a new relationship time period to make sure they aren’t being neglected.
Standard advice is: don’t open a relationship to fix problems. Don’t expect adding relationships to fix problems. It won’t work, and it will hurt everyone involved.
I’m not ‘looking for’ anything. I have never in my life looked for a relationship. Frankly, people who are on the make – monogamous, poly, whatever – scare me. I’m only ever interested in specific people; if those people aren’t interested in me, then that’s how it works out, I’m not off predatorily looking for someone to fill an imagined need.
But, again, “What are you looking for that you can’t find in your current friends” isn’t generally taken as an argument against meeting someone new and enjoying time with them. “I don’t have time for more close relationships now, so I’m not going to follow up on the parrot fancier’s society luncheon even though I might meet some people I could be friends with there” is one thing, “I have a friend, I don’t need to look for more” is another. If it turns out that a friend and I are mutually interested in a relationship, then the question is whether I have the time and resources to give that potential interaction proper support, not “I have a friend already, thanks.”
I don’t. Dating has never made any damn sense to me, so I’ve never done it. 
An unrelated question for lee:
Somewhere after you got pregnant, you expressed a strong preference for keeping all Disney products out of your house. Given the pervasiveness of Disney in children’s products and clothing, this seemed to me to be quite a challenging task.
How are you doing in the effort?