Ah, there you go. I am not at all familiar with the OP. Some here claim that the phrase is Christian based, and it is–but the principle underlying is true for all mainstream faiths. I have no problem with non-faith based marriages-many of them are more stable than religious based ones. I just used the phrase that sprang to mind when I think of marriage–two people cleaving unto one another (sorry, I am truly not Biblical!). Or two people facing the world together-helping and supporting each other. I see no room for #3 or #4 etc.
OK-so it’s no some hedonistic idyll. So why do it? It is hard enough to have a good, stable marriage–I truly don’t understand the need to increase the complexity of it exponentially. I like tapas and smorgasbord, but not in people. YMMV, adn apparently does.
I completely support gay marriage and feel that lesbians and homosexuals should have the same rights as heteros when it comes to marriage–not civil unions, not “partners” etc.
But this? No. If that makes me a closed minded so and so, so be it. I do not believe that this is best for kids or even extended families. I think the jury is still out on this kind of “relating”–and in 20 years, when the tell-all books come out (by the kids who were raised this way), we shall see another side, perhaps. That is not to say that people who live this way are bad parents and that is not what I mean.
I am referring to roles, and role expectatons, and boundaries and other ill formed notions in my head. I can’t articulate it better than that, sorry. If this were ideal, than I think it would have occurred more often in history.
Not trying to convert or piss anyone off, just some random thoughts.
No, it’s not. You’re welcome to your opinions about polyamory and polygamy, of course, but this is just factually incorrect.
Islam is a mainstream faith, and polygamy is allowed in it. cite
The Talmud supports polygamy, and there are polygamous Jews in Israel today. cite
Historically, as well as in isolated spots today, polygyny and polyandry were condoned and practiced by Hindus. cite The current predominant Hindu belief is that family bonds are an illusion and not good for spiritual growth, and reducing the number of people in a family is good because it weakens that illusion. Polygamy and polyandry are not ideal because they make family ties stronger, not weaker. cite
Now it is true that none of the mainstream religions of today condone relationships outside of marriage, or multiple husbands of one wife, but none of them are concerned with “forsaking all others”. That is absolutely a Christian ideal. (And not even *that ideal - the ideal in Christianity is celibacy, according to Paul. Only those men who cannot live a celibate life are encouraged to take a wife. cite.)
*Corinthians 7:8
8Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 9But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
Wait a minute. Strike that. In North Eastern India, polyandry, or the taking of more than one husband by a woman, is practiced today. So replace that sentence with:
Sorry about that. I didn’t proofread adequately after finding the first Hindu cite.
That’s a part of why I don’t do monogamy. Way too damn complicated for me to want to bother figuring out. (WhyNot already pretty much covered why that is.)
I like my life simple. So I stick with the stuff that’s simple for me.
Do you have any scientific evidence for your position?
It seems to me you are ignoring the incredible complexity of our brains, bodies and the chemistry that runs them. Given that the scientific community is still barely scratching the surface in understanding all of this stuff, what special logic are you using to leap past them and arrive at your conclusion?
The reviews here of the other thread are pointed, but less than glowing. Can I get away with not reading it and asking, “Does KellyM still have a physical penis, or not?”
You are basing modern societal norms on the Talmud and Old Testament teachings?
:eek:
You seriously expect me to believe that this way of life is mainstream and historically common? I did not say that it did not happen in other cultures or ages–I said that if it were ideal, it would have happened more often (more frequently) in history. I think you are stretching a point to build a case. You’re in charge of your choices --but I am puzzled as to why my approval is needed. Someone upthread said that they were afraid the tone would get 'ugly". My tone is not ugly. I am not personally attacking anyone here.
However, my disapproval does not make me close minded; my or anyone’s approval doesn’t make this lifestyle right and just and good. The basic fundamental unit of most societies is the family–which while it may be extended, has at its core a husband and wife and children. You know this. Why pretend that polyamory is as common as monogamy? And if it were in the past, how much should that dictate what is practiced now?
So, are you ok with this guy from Utah (sorry, can’t remember his name) with his multiple young wives and kicking the older teen boys out so as to reduce competition? What if it were a group of women and the roles reversed?
Yeah, I know-light years away from your vision and reality. Maybe. There are plenty of people, myself included, who are here and will comment truthfully on either the state of their marriage or the institution of marriage–why not those of you who practice alternative marriages as well? What of reluctant spouses who might agree just to keep the spouse? I’m sure that happens. But from this thread, there is no downside to polyamory, hence my hedonistic idyll comment. If approval is needed, please title the thread “come celebrate my polyamory with us” to let people know.
What I hear is that you can’t say no to your sexual urges–the whole if “I want to squeeze and bite, I will” comment upthread, and that boundaries aren’t recognized or respected–how does this make for a good marriage? How does this decision affect your parents and your grandparents? Your cousins and aunts and uncles? Your inlaws and their entire side of the family? They all are so down with it, you’ve got converts queueing. Damn me and my conventional, suburban mindset–people like me are so repressed… :rolleyes:
Excuse my sarcasm, but I am truly puzzled by this. Who goes to parent-teacher conferences? If you think that you and your choices are not discussed in the teacher’s lounge(with concern for the children) or in the neighborhood (even in the city), you are mistaken.
Fear of gossip is no reason to not do something, but I don’t buy that’s this is only a beautiful world for you, accepted by all those around you. I also don’t buy that monogamy is a box or a stifling constraint. So, why not really educate people? (or me) Be honest-tell how hard it is to schedule time with all involved or tell how whatever aspect gives you great joy (not the sex bit-1. I’m not voyueristic and 2. sex is fleeting). If this is requiring TMI, then say so. I don’t want to pry-I am looking for information.
A physical, functional penis, used in sexual congress, exists, alongside secondary female characteristics. Don’t waste your time with the other thread.
eleanor, it seems clear to me, from your posts, that monogamy is the only way you can conceive of being happy. That’s true for me too. But you seem not to get that your ideals are not everyone else’s ideals, and making ‘logical’ arguments and using rolleyes smilies just make you look terribly judgemental.
I sure used to think polyamoury was a bit out there. I had a lot of friends in open relationships, but they were pretty low-key about it. Then an engaged couple took a third girl into their relationship and I had the opportunity to spend a lot of time with the three of them. It stopped being weird to me, and became just another path to happiness. Not one that I think is suitable for me, but one that clearly is suitable for others.
I *am *being honest with you elanorigby! No, it doesn’t complicate my life on a daily basis. It really, honestly doesn’t
Twice in my life, a rather heated discussion much like this one has come up in real life, and I’ve had to have this conversation in person with people I know and care about. In one of those cases, the friends decided they could tolerate polyamory in the community as long as they weren’t asked to participate. In another, some of the people chose to leave the community and no longer remain my friends. That really saddens me like you wouldn’t believe, but I’m not sure what could have been done to change it. I was not willing to change my relationship, and they were not willing to associate with me based on that knowledge, even though none of them were affected by it in any practical sense. Their discomfort with their knowledge outweighed their friendship with me, just as my living my life with my husband outweighed my friendship with them. And yeah, that hurts and that sucks.
Nope. I was responding to your assertion that “forsaking all others” is an ideal of which “…the principle underlying is true for all mainstream faiths.” It isn’t, historically it isn’t, and simply because polygamy is not all that common, even in those mainstream faiths, doesn’t mean it’s not supported by them.
And, uh, yeah of course I’m going to “use” the Talmud. It’s the single most important book of commentary and interpretation of the Jewish Holy Books, and read, debated and followed by Jews today. You’d rather I use Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus? And when did Christians start discounting Paul?
Nope, never claimed it.
I’m sorry, I missed where you said that. Can you quote it for me?
I’m not looking for your approval. You’ll notice I haven’t disputed anything that is your opinion. I’ve continually maintained that you’re welcome to your opinions, even if they aren’t shared by me. I only stepped in to dispute your factual error - on a board devoted to fighting ignorance, no less.
Nor am I. I am providing cited information which opposed your assertion about world religions.
Nobody has called you close-minded, except yourself, a couple of times.
Agreed.
Unless it’s a widower and his children, an ex-husband, ex-wife, stepmother and grandmother and their children, two mothers and their children, one mother and her children, a kibbutz full of children with hired adult caretakers, a foster-father, his girlfriend and their children, a biological mother, a caregiver mother her husband and their children in an open adoption, grandparents, parents, children, aunts and uncles…the possibilities are literally endless. “Family” means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. The “nuclear” family is the product of very recent technology and affluence that is the theoretical “norm” in a very small part of the world and is already more observed in the breach than the practice. It was a social experiment. It’s failing, due to stress, divorce, remarriage, gay rights, parental death and dual-income families. There, I finally wrote a negative observation about your style of family - which is also *my *style of family, in case you missed it. My husband and I are the only parents in our family.
I’m not pretending it was ever “common”. It’s not common now. Whether or not something is common has no bearing on whether or not it works for some people.
Absolutely not. Every time I have written about alternative lifestyles, I include the all important caveat: “as long as all involved are consenting adults”. My problems with what I’ve heard about his case stem from his helping others to obtain very young brides in a coerced environment.
I’m sure it happens too. **Velma **already shared a story that sounded much like that. And I said the guy sounded like an ass. How am I glossing over the negatives that are possible. Some people suck. They suck whether they’re monogomous or polyamorus. Not my fault if more informed people don’t have more negative examples to share. You’ll notice most of the negatives brought up are hypothetical negatives, and those in the actual relationships are pretty positive. Of course, we have a skewed sample, but it might also lead one to conclude that it’s your hypotheticals that are incorrect, not that we’re liars. I’m sure not every poly relationship is glowing. But you have three different examples in this thread of how it CAN work.
Because if it’s done right, if it’s done by consenting, communicating adults in love and trust, there is no downside. Seriously, every “downside” gets talked about, negotiated and worked out to the satisfaction of all the members. It takes about 45 seconds of conversation to cover, “Honey, you’ve been out on dates four nights this week, and your chores are going undone and I’m beginning to feel a little resentful about that. Can we come to some agreement about the work you can take on around here before going out?” “Oh, yeah. I’m sorry honey, I blew that one. Let me take care of that today, and I’ll recommit myself to making sure things are done before I go out. If I mess it up again, I’ll not go out so often. Obviously, I need to watch my time more carefully. I love you.” You can have that conversation while you’re washing the dishes together (as I did, just last night.) If you consider having to consciously communicate your feelings and admit your shortcomings “a downside”, then I guess that’s it.
Nope, no approval is needed. Correct facts are requested, however. And, I might add, you came in here asking to learn more, so don’t get your hackles up when someone tells you things that don’t jibe with your preconceived notions.
Oh, come on. Of course I can control them. I am not a rapist. I don’t want to have to control them all the time, in every situation when everyone involved has decided I don’t need to control them. That’s a very different thing.
My father and his wife have an open marriage, but theirs was open before mine. In fact, I and my two step-brothers grew up in that marriage (although I was only a part-time kid) so THIS is that “tell-all” book you were waiting for! I’m here to state it didn’t suck, and my brothers agree. I know quite a few grown people who are the children of poly people, and none of them have said it sucked, either. There’s even a post in one of the other recent threads from a poster raised in a very openly poly family (unlike mine where it wasn’t totally hidden, but not in-your-face, either) and he says it didn’t suck. Again, you’re entitled to your opinion, but I value the opinion of those who have been there over hypotheticals.
My mother’s not thrilled with the idea, but she doesn’t really get a vote, and she has a good close relationship with my husband and I and our kids. The extended family probably doesn’t know (unless Mom told them), because I don’t share my sex life with my grandmother.
Again, the only one who’s been saying that is you.
I do, generally, because my husband works. Occasionally, he can take time off during the day and he comes too. A few times, when the kid was being tested for LD, my mother came along as well, because she’s a teacher of the same grade level and was able to ask pointed questions about theory and technique that I didn’t even know how to ask. None of our lovers have ever been to a teacher conference, because none of them are parents of our children. Even if they were, I see no reason why all of them would go to a conference any more than all the parents of mono parents usually go. I’ve seen only a handful of two-parent conferences in my years, and none which included all the stepparents. Usually a family appoints one person to be the liason with the school and responsible for the child’s homework, no matter how many parents there are.
There are very few poly people in my social circle, but none of them are hostile to polyamory. They simply think it’s not for them. If they tried to prevent my husband or I from being poly, even by social pressure, they would no longer be a part of my social circle.
I’m trying. You won’t accept the answers, apparently.
But it isn’t! It really, really isn’t. For ME. For me it’s not hard at all, for other people it might be.
Sex is the least of my hobbies, really. What gives me close joy is having freedom and possibilities. I find joy in teaching and sharing and learning from other people. I love exploring bodies, but even more, I love exploring minds. I love spending time with people I love. I love love.
I agree. Just because you don’t “get” being poly doesn’t mean it’s bad. People should build the family that works best for them. And it doesn’t seem like you are honestly trying to understand the poly position–it sounds like you are here to condemn it.
I’m not sure how you justify defending monogamy anyway–you’re on record on the board as having an unhappy marriage. Obviously monogamy isn’t working out for you all that well. How is it that you feel comfortable telling other people that their relationships aren’t good for them?
How about if you (in general) worry about how your various relationships are impacting your family and let the poly folks worry about the larger issues in their lives. It’s fine to ask for clarification and offer your opinion, but leave your condemnation at the door if it only boils down to “I think its wrong, because I don’t understand it.”
PS: Although I am not poly, my marriage vows didn’t say a damn thing about “forsaking all others.” Of course, there are lots of things that weren’t in the vows that we agreed to do, because we, y’know, talked about what our relationship would look like and we periodically continue to talk to each other. If you are bound only by those few words spoken when you married, you’re relationship isn’t very evolved.
While WhyNot has already handled this post ably, I can’t resist sticking my oar in.
Don’t see anyone who’s said that.
At the same time, there is evidence that a minority of people have ethically pursued multiple relationships for a long time. Modern examples I have off the top of my head – before Warren Buffett’s wife died two years ago, they would send out Christmas cards from “Warren, Susie and Astrid”. The creator of Wonder Woman had a similar relationship structure.
Ideal for whom?
Why the straw man?
No, I’m opposed to minors being coerced into sexual activity.
Seriously, what the hell?
Setting aside the fact that I do not in general speak about the private states of my personal relationships in public anywhere because I think it’s horrifyingly rude – I do and have talked about issues even in this thread, to the extent I’m comfortable doing so. (If I want to seek out support for issues, I would absolutely not do so here, in any case; my first preference would be for people who actually know the parties involved, and secondarily for people who will not sidetrack discussion of issues into justification of whether or not my family has a right to exist.)
But in the grand scheme of things: my marriage is fine. I see no reason to dredge up minor things to whine about to satisfy your desire for realism. (We just had a thirty-second bicker about him mumbling. :eek: Oh noes.)
Frankly, the downside from my perspective is mostly that because I’m not closeted I get into this sort of conversation every so often.
My father commented to me a while back something like, “You know, I understand my mother a bit better now. My sister entered an interracial marriage in the 70s, and my mother said, ‘Well … if I were making your decisions, I’d have chosen a less … interesting life. But it’s not my life, and I can’t do that, so I’ll support you the best I can.’”
My mother doesn’t get it, and I don’t particularly care, as we’re not close.
My mother-in-law doesn’t get it, but does things like call up and ask how other folks are doing because she recognises they’re important to us.
My boyfriend’s mother takes it as another thing on the long list of ways in which he is a defective son when she wants to make dwama. This list also includes that he doesn’t cut his hair as short as she would prefer, is a bit overweight, and that he owns a long black coat. (And after ranting at him in the ‘you’re fat’ mode, she demands to know why he isn’t eating the cookies she made him. I am not overall impressed with her sense of consistency.)
When I came out to my cousin, he sort of peered at me and said, “Heh. Now I feel better about my relationships.”
Not a proselytiser, you know, and I could not in fact give less of a flying fuck at a rolling donut about “converts”. You don’t want to be poly? Don’t.
I mentioned this in the IMHO thread, I’ll mention it again here. Some friends of mine were targeted by a stalker a while back, and got the CPS folks investigating their family. The investigators went to the kids’ school and said something to the effect of, “Are you aware of their family structure?” to the school teachers and admin. Got a response of a puzzled, “They all come to parent-teacher conferences. Kids seem happy. What’s the problem?”
Have been. It’s not an issue.
(Though my boyfriend and husband’s local girlfriend have showed up to help us start moving, so I should get my ass off the Dope and help with loading the truck sometime soon.)
Our partner-relevant scheduling stuff, in entirety:
Tuesday evenings husband has a phone call with his long-distance partner. Wednesdays he has a Warcraft date with his local girlfriend. Sometimes I join them on this, though not always. It varies which house this is held at; often I spend that time with my boyfriend instead. Thursday night is a games night held by some friends of ours at which we all are regular attendees. We tend to do something on weekends, and are agreed to doing a house swap (since my boyfriend and his girlfriend live together) once a month or so. Every so often either my husband takes a week trip to visit his long-distance girlfriend or she comes here for a week, at which point we negotiate who sleeps in the guest room depending on how well people are sleeping and whether or not hsuband needs to go to work in the morning. Oh, and husband’s and my families are in Maryland and LD girlfriend’s in Virginia, so when we visit for winterholidayseason we often get together because that’s a lot shorter-distance than MA-CA.
You know how in a relationship you can get those places where there’s that sort of synergistic thrum, where you’re able to work together as a team and feel how much better that is than being on your own? Imagine that, twice.
I won’t speak to whether or not it’s good for the children, as I don’t have any. Nor will I assume what any of the poly posters in this thread think. However, I used to be a child (I’m pretty sure) and although my mother and step-father were monogamous, I had to deal with something similar “four nights a week” with her playing softball. Now before anyone says that’s not even remotely the same thing, you have no idea how consuming that passion was.
She didn’t just do it every week night, but all weekend too. And this wasn’t occasionally like a dating period would be, but from the end of February to right before Christmas. Some of the places where up to a 2 hours distance, ONE WAY! That went on all throughout my high school years. The overall scenario lasted my entire time growing up. It never varied and things like my bestfriend’s wedding, my prom, illness and work all took a backseat. There was no excuse, ever, for missing league games or tournaments (which a lot just happened to be out of state during regional/state type stuff).
So, despite the fact that this couldn’t have been the best way to raise a kid (for me or any of the other players who consistently behaved like that), no one ever said boo about it. Not family members, or teachers (when I fell asleep in class or missed tons of school), or the church (as long as she kept the co-ed team winning) when we weren’t in attendance. I wonder why that was, but I figure it came from that being an ‘acceptable’ practice. Unlike what we’re discussing here.
And see, from my point of view as someone who was coerced into the “if you can’t beat them, you might as well join them” philosophy, I doubt seriously if any poly families are encouraging their children to follow suit. Furthermore, I’m sure that the periods they go through when they’re dating or introducing someone new into the fold, are much shorter than anything I ever went through with softball (and all its attendant drama). I’m sure the same can be said for any child of a hetero couple who deals with the same things. Neglect knows no orientation. My monogamous mom was neglectful. Lilairen, WhyNot, lee and Hama sound like they’re not. Why the outrage here but not at the billions of other non-poly examples we’re faced with daily? Or is it because this is easier?
Seeing as he doesn’t go out until 9, and they’re in bed at 8 and 8:30, I don’t see how it concerns them. We’re in the city - nothing starts until 10:00 anyway.
Gives me plenty too much time to be stuck on The Dope without distractions, however!
And yeah, he’s in a new relationship right now (two, in fact) so he’s in the “pink fluffy stupids” (LOVE THAT PHRASE!) times two and spending more time out than usual. I don’t care about the time out - but I do care when he’s not getting his stuff done here. So we talked about it, and he’s a busy bee cleaning up today!
Don’t the kids ever wake up after 9 for a glass of water, or because they have an upset tummy, or they’ve had a bad dream, and ask “Where’s Daddy?” What do you tell them?
I also dispute your claim that the nuclear family (Husband, Wife, Children) is a “social experiment” of “very recent” construct.
There have been prohibitions against adultery since at least Mosiac times.
Finally, I thought (according to the usual arguments) that gay rights didn’t affect the institution of marriage in any way, now you’re saying they’re in part causing its demise?
This last part seems amazing to me…you are more concerned with his chores being done than the fact that he is more interested in spending time with a couple other women, rather than you? I find that extraordinary! I think the thing that amazes me the most about all of this is when I think about how busy my husband and I already are, and how little time we seem to have for each other. Of course, when he is traveling as he so often does, we are really, really short on time together, much more so than ordinary couples, and I MISS him! We deal with it, even though we don’t like it, because it’s pretty much necessary in order for us to support ourselves…but it sucks, for both of us. And even when he is working in town, we are so busy just keeping up with everything around the house, our jobs, and the kid, that it seems we hardly have 2 minutes to talk to each other anymore. I can’t imagine where anyone would find the time & energy to keep up two relationships on the side, I really don’t.
Problems in a marriage don’t automatically mean that monogamy is the issue. If I fight with my husband, it in no way says to me, “If I had an open marriage, we wouldn’t fight like this.” Has she (and it’s a little unclear to whom you are referring—you quote Helen’s Eidolon, but the part where she is speaking to eleanorrigby) specifically stated that the unhappiness in her marriage is a result of having “forsaken all others”?
I have to live in my house; household not being tasks done actively inconveniences me. It’s not my damn job to wash the pots, and if my husband hasn’t gotten off his ass to do so in a while, then I either have to do his job for him (washing dishes is my “I despise this task” chore, which is why it’s his to do – I figure everyone gets one or two and should only live with people who can cover for 'em ) or live on cheese and crackers when I’m at home. That’s a real, tangible problem (specially since frankly my diet is pretty shitty even when I have options; I have a bad habit of forgetting to eat when I’m working).
I find that to be overall a much bigger deal than what he does in his free time. There have been times his other things have cut into our time together so much that our relationship has suffered – however, those other things have almost all been things like ‘going to grad school while working full-time’ or ‘trying to make significant PVP rank in Warcraft’. (He’s thinking of getting a second master’s, too. Wheefun.)
If he didn’t have his local girlfriend, he’d almost certainly be spending more time playing cards with his buddies or gaming on weekends, as that’s what he did with that time before their relationship started. I’m not losing anything.
) or live on cheese and crackers when I’m at home. That’s a real, tangible problem (specially since frankly my diet is pretty shitty even when I have options; I have a bad habit of forgetting to eat when I’m working).