[QUOTE=CarnalK]
Good point. No violent schism in Islam. Nope. Got along just fine.
[/QUOTE]
Oh, Islam had a (Sunni-recognized) Caliph until the last Ottoman sultan was deposed; but since then, nobody in the (Sunni) Islamic community seems to miss the institution much.
My obvious point was that the lack of a clear successor had a large impact on Islam. olivesmarch4th’s question was “what will happen?”. While Tibetan Buddhism may continue, “just fine” may be up to interpretation.
You seem to be saying that a religion can survive without a specific leader. That’s true, but the transition from having one to not having one isn’t guaranteed to come out “just fine”. The animosity left between Shiites and Sunni is, I suspect, not a comfort to those contemplating the future of Tibetan Buddhism without a Dalai lama.
[QUOTE=Uzi]
Sorry, I’m confused as to what is ridiculous here: A law banning someone from claiming they are a reincarnation of someone else, or someone claiming to be a reincarnation of someone else? :dubious:
[/QUOTE]
If the Tibetan Buddhists are being ridiculous, aren’t the Chinese being doubly ridiculous by saying they have the authority to regulate reincarnation?
Jean Claude Van Damme is
Karmacop!
It all comes back to you… this summer.
[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th]
What will happen to Tibetan Buddhism?
[/QUOTE]
Better question is: What has happened to Tibetan Buddhism?
[QUOTE=Marley23]
If the Tibetan Buddhists are being ridiculous, aren’t the Chinese being doubly ridiculous by saying they have the authority to regulate reincarnation?
[/QUOTE]
I would say not even remotely doubly and, in fact, a hell of a lot less ridiculous. The Chinese government is cynically manipulating a church ascension process for political power. Ostensibly, at least some of the Tibetan monks think they are actually “finding” the next “incarnation”.
Though, to be fair, the current Dalai Lama saying he gets to choose which country he is incarnated in next, for political reasons, makes me suspect he doesn’t buy the religious hocus pocus all that strongly himself.
[QUOTE=netsplit]
Well I see your point, and I apologize for over reacting. However try looking at it from the perspective of someone who actually believes in reincarnation.
[/QUOTE]
I would never deliberately destroy a child’s belief in Santa Claus, but these are grown adults who still believe essentially in the same thing. Frankly, I have little sympathy for them.
[QUOTE=stolichnaya]
Jean Claude Van Damme is
Karmacop!
It all comes back to you… this summer.
[/QUOTE]
No one’s been inspired to make a “Karma Police” reference yet? For shame…
[QUOTE=CarnalK]
I would say not even remotely doubly and, in fact, a hell of a lot less ridiculous. The Chinese government is cynically manipulating a church ascension process for political power. Ostensibly, at least some of the Tibetan monks think they are actually “finding” the next “incarnation”.
[/QUOTE]
I understand why China is doing what it’s doing, but that doesn’t make it any less ridiculous to me. And it’s such a nakedly cynical move that I’m amazed they expect any Tibetan Buddhists to swallow it.
[QUOTE=Indistinguishable]
No one’s been inspired to make a “Karma Police” reference yet? For shame…
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I’m really embarrassed about that.
In that case, I think you are using “ridiculous” where I would use the word “outrageous”. But to be fair, it’s not like Tibetans got to vote on who gets to be Dalai Lama before the Chinese took over.
[QUOTE=CarnalK]
In that case, I think you are using “ridiculous” where I would use the word “outrageous”. But to be fair, it’s not like Tibetans got to vote on who gets to be Dalai Lama before the Chinese took over.
[/QUOTE]
It’s an outrage, but it’s also absurd just in the sense of a corporeal government claiming it can legislate a spiritual process. If claiming to be a reincarnated person is ridiculous, a government implying that reincarnation is real and saying it controls it is more ridiculous, in my view.
The Tibetans didn’t vote on who gets to be Dalai Lama, but those who follow the religion presumably choose to do so. If Catholics don’t get a vote in who leads the church, but if China said it was going to appoint its own Pope for any Chinese Catholics out there, I don’t think people would treat it quite the same way. (I know the Vatican doesn’t directly govern anyone in China.) The Tibetans didn’t vote for China to take over the religion or the region. While I don’t know how the Lamas govern, I don’t see the two governments as equal.
[QUOTE=Marley23]
It’s an outrage, but it’s also absurd just in the sense of a corporeal government claiming it can legislate a spiritual process.
[/QUOTE]
Corporeal people are claiming that a spiritual process is occurring. What’s the difference? One claims it occurs the other claims it just wants to legislate it. If you forget the politics of the situation and just look at this then the root cause of the situation is those claiming spiritual processes.
I’ll leave it to others to argue the merits of living under a theocracy and the political choices that person would have if they were of a different religion.
Hasn’t the Dalai Lama already done away with a theocratic government for Tibet?
The idea of him choosing where he will be reborn isn’t all that odd if you accept his sect’s version of Buddhism. As an enlightened being, he would choose to return to continue the work of bringing others to englightenment and this would be out of ultimate compassion.
At least that’s the theory, AFAIK.
On a more serious note, doesn’t anyone else find this to be a fascinating window into the difference between Western and East Asian thinking? State regulation of religion was common practice in previous Chinese dynasties, and as far as I can tell it was also that way in Japan (State Shinto and all that).
Maybe we’re the odd ducks for having this instinct that people’s spiritual life is somehow transcendent of secular politics. After all, wasn’t it an odd set of historical circumstances that saw Christianity (1) recognized as the Roman Empire’s state religion and (2) move in to fill the gap when the Western Empire fell? In China, no such (universal, evangelical) state religion was instituted, and the empire never fell.
(Insofar as the Qing dynasty had a state religion, reverence of the dynasty and the emperor was the religion. But it wasn’t a universalist thing that forbade various Buddhist sects and different religions like Taoism and even Islam and Christianity–as long as those groups recognized the State’s spiritual as well as secular authority.)
[QUOTE=Koxinga]
(Insofar as the Qing dynasty had a state religion, reverence of the dynasty and the emperor was the religion. But it wasn’t a universalist thing that forbade various Buddhist sects and different religions like Taoism and even Islam and Christianity–as long as those groups recognized the State’s spiritual as well as secular authority.)
[/QUOTE]
Actually, the Dalai and Panchen Lama’s were the spiritual advisors to every dynasty if not every emperor starting with the Yuan (Mongol) and including the Qing. Lama Temple is in Beijing for a reason.
Opening coronation scene of the Last Emperor has hundreds of Gelupa Monks chanting. Not that that is like a great cite or anything.
Non-Tibetans have been involved with Tibetan buddhism and often influencing the selection of the Dalai Lama since a Mongolian prince made the first one the spiritual and temporal ruler of Tibet (origin of the “god king” moniker), who was actually the 5th DL. Yep, the first official DL was the 5th one, and the previous 4 were postumously named.
In the 1990’s, the current DL said it was entirely possible that he was not going to reincarnate. I’m not sure if he has officially come out since then and said he’s going to reincarnate outside of China.
The Tibetan theocracy as dismantled after the 1960 timeframe. Although Tibetan Buddhism and Bon monastaries can be the de facto leaders in an area.
While I have strong opinions on this subject, forgive me for not going into them on a public message board.
I am not an expert on Tibetan Buddhism, but have delved in enough to give a bit of insight. Tibetans would dearly love to have their country, and culture back, as it was taken in a particularly cruel manner by the Chinese Invasion . One of the strengths of Buddhism, though, is in it’s adaptability; Buddhists view everything as transient and in an eternal state of change, (to the point of death and deteriorating as a self) and the mindset strived for is to be able to handle that inevitable change, with whatever crap handed ya on the Mortal Coil.
Tibetan Buddhist teachers have been coming into the West and teaching Buddhist tenets since the 70’s,beyond cultural barriers, and have established many monasteries in the US and Europe. The point of Buddhism is to teach people how to get beyond duality of mind, and get a grip on reality of the moment, and thrive as a decent human being. Tibetan Buddhist teachers in the West are amenable to the fact that that’s where the teaching/Dharma is going now, and generous to Westerners with teachings that were only available to monastic adepts in the past.
In light of that development, the Chinese government is pretty sad in it’s attempt to try to attain control of any future Tibetan leader, in a Buddhist sense. I don’t understand Tibetan reincarnation theory solidly, but, historically, it requires adept Lamas who can, through well-developed means, be able to discern the proper reincarnation of an adept individual. It’s a very well-honed system. Tibetans are greatly logical within their system, and very, very rigorous in the skills of discernment.
The Dalai Lama is as well, at the height of good mental training. He has arranged the current Tibetan government as a Democratic system,(scroll down a wee bit) seeing it as a better form of government in the modern world.
A despot wouldn’t do that. As an (quite enlightened) Buddhist, the Dalai Lama has done this out of insight and decency. The Chinese government can lay claim to whatever they desire, but, in a Buddhist sense, it’s the desire that is laughable. It’s grasping, and won’t hold at all. By the tenets of Tibetan Buddhism, again, being a system of adapting and change, the Dalai Lama can reincarnate in podunk Kentucky and continue to teach if that’s what’s necessary. Since he is a committed leader, at this point, politically, it would probably be in a more suitable position to help the Tibetan people.
In reading about the very well-developed Tibetan theory of reincarnriation, I, with Western Mind, balk at parts. But, it is an amazingly coherent system, and I try to understand it. It is waaaayyyy harder to understand than a rather simple Christianity, and quite rewarding in the contemplation.
[QUOTE=Uzi]
Corporeal people are claiming that a spiritual process is occurring. What’s the difference? One claims it occurs the other claims it just wants to legislate it.
[/QUOTE]
Both claims are silly; it’s just that one is both silly and inconsistant. It’s the difference between the Pope saying “There is a God in Heaven, follow these rules to to please Him and your soul will get in”, and me saying “There is no God, no Heaven, and no soul; follow these rules to make God happy and your soul will go to Heaven”.
[QUOTE=Koxinga]
On a more serious note, doesn’t anyone else find this to be a fascinating window into the difference between Western and East Asian thinking? State regulation of religion was common practice in previous Chinese dynasties, and as far as I can tell it was also that way in Japan (State Shinto and all that).
[/QUOTE]
It’s not really so different. In the Byzantine Empire, the Patriarch of Constantinople was chosen by the bishops “on the advice” of the Emperor. And while, after the fall of the Western Empire, the Pope was independent of any one secular authority, various states used their influence to make sure the “right” pope got elected. And even today, in the West, you have various “state churches”, where there’s some state support and regulation of religious practices.
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
Both claims are silly; it’s just that one is both silly and inconsistant. It’s the difference between the Pope saying “There is a God in Heaven, follow these rules to to please Him and your soul will get in”, and me saying “There is no God, no Heaven, and no soul; follow these rules to make God happy and your soul will go to Heaven”.
[/QUOTE]
It doesn’t look, from that article at least, that the Chinese are saying reincarnation doesn’t exist. They are just saying that you need a license to claim you’ve done it.
“No tickee, no laundree”, so to speak. :o