Time For The Fence Along The Border

[DMC]

[QUOTE=magellan01]
So, if you’d like to keep the discussion going, answer the questions that are asked of you. Why would you fight that? Especially when they are giving you the opportunity to clarify your position? Do you think it is more helpful for me to respond to you when I am unclear about something? Sheesh.
[/QUOTE]
You keep telling us that the problem you have with the illegal immigrants is that they are breaking the law. I offered an easy solution to that, if that is truly your problem with them.

My problem with murderers isn’t that the broke a law, it’s that they kill people.
My problem with thieves isn’t that they broke a law, it’s that they take property from others.

If your problem is with them breaking the law, then removing the law fixes that. If your problem with them is something else, then what is it?

[Der_Trihs]

[QUOTE=magellan01]
No one is talking about just building a wall and walking away. The wall will be supplemented by electronic surveillance,: drones and other things. In total, these things augment the Border Patrol. They talk about the fence as a force multiplier, not a substitution.
[/quote]
And this is supposed to save us money ? We rip out an important source of labor and revenue, then build this expensive boondoggle to keep them out ? Frankly, if I wasn’t being asked to pay for it, I’d let you blow your money and laugh.

[QUOTE=magellan01]
And if any American company, or individual tries to subvert the fence or otherwise aid illegals, they will be arrested and jailed for a long time. Or should bem any way.
[/QUOTE]
But they won’t. They’ll say, “Well Mr Senator/Judge/whatever you could prosecute us - and then I’m afraid we’d have to point out the legal status of your maid/gardener/driver”.

What you fail to acknowledge is that we don’t want to keep them out; we’re just indulging our bigotry by blaming our problems on them.

[Least_Original_User_Name_Ever]

[QUOTE=magellan01]
The Border Patrol seems to think the fence they have in San Diego has been extremely helpful. and if it extends into the Pacific a coulpe hundred yards, patrolled by Border Patrol or Coast Guard boatds, so much the better.

They idea is to have control of our own borders. Why is that so strange? We can then let in 100, 1,000, 1,000,000, or 10,000,000 a year. Whatever number we deem appropriate. If these paople are so valuable to our economy and contributye so much, we’ll open the flood gates and everyine will be here legally. So, what’s the problem?
[/QUOTE]

Would it be worth it? All the people, not solving any problem at all, and diverting people/resources from our global war on terror plays into it.

[magellan01]

[QUOTE=DMC]
You keep telling us that the problem you have with the illegal immigrants is that they are breaking the law. I offered an easy solution to that, if that is truly your problem with them.

My problem with murderers isn’t that the broke a law, it’s that they kill people.
My problem with thieves isn’t that they broke a law, it’s that they take property from others.

If your problem is with them breaking the law, then removing the law fixes that. If your problem with them is something else, then what is it?
[/QUOTE]

Unbelievable. Just, unbelievable.

[magellan01]

[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
And this is supposed to save us money ? We rip out an important source of labor and revenue, then build this expensive boondoggle to keep them out ? Frankly, if I wasn’t being asked to pay for it, I’d let you blow your money and laugh.
[/QUOTE]

The labor and revenue will be quickly replaced. Either by native workers or by those we quickly reinstate because we need them. If you’re truly of the opinion that they are so valuable, don’t you think they will be brought back pronto? Also, they’ll be making fairer wages, thus contributing more to the coffers.

[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
But they won’t. They’ll say, “Well Mr Senator/Judge/whatever you could prosecute us - and then I’m afraid we’d have to point out the legal status of your maid/gardener/driver”.
[/QUOTE]

I share this fear, too. I am encouraged though by the verdicts on the Enron dirt (unrelated to immigration, but a model for how we should treat white-collar criminals) and the fact that the immigration issue is now on the table and not going away. The complicity of the dems and reps that has this to be kept under the rug is coming to an end. An article in the Washiington Post shows that constituents of both stripes want this issue fixed in a way that does not include a version of amnesty and prosecuting those who hire the illegals may be the most important part of any real change. Bush and his boys don’t get this. But I think the House, closer to the people, do. We’ll see.

[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
What you fail to acknowledge is that we don’t want to keep them out; we’re just indulging our bigotry by blaming our problems on them.
[/QUOTE]

I agree somewhat. Certain flavors of big business want them here. And the reps are all to happy to oblige their addiction. The dems want them here for more votes. And the reps in turn cater to them to not risk offending them and winding up with an even smaller piece of the hispanic voting pie.

And you KEEP saying it’s bigotry. Can you not wrap your head around—even the possibility—that it is not? I asked you before: how about the legal Mexican immigrant who agrees with me? How is he a bigot? I guess I can tell you now until the cows come up that I’m not a bigot, but I guess you wouldn’t believe me. Oh well…

[magellan01]

[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever]
Would it be worth it? All the people, not solving any problem at all, and diverting people/resources from our global war on terror plays into it.
[/QUOTE]

I think so. In other threads we’ve had the costs of illegal aliens offered. I think California alone was $10 billion. And how do you calculate the cost of hospitals closing in a community. Or the poorer education your child gets because half his school is now made up of kids with English as not their primary language?

As I mentioned to Der Trihs, I wonder how much more those jobs they are doing will contribute to the coffers when the people doing them (natives or legal imigrants or seasonal workers) for fairer (higher) wages.

And this, like the military, is a place where the cost doesn’t matter. Two of a countries primary duties is to protect its inhabitants (military) and to control its borders. Of course, I’m sure YMV.

[tomndebb]

[QUOTE=magellan01]
And how do you calculate the cost of hospitals closing in a community.
[/QUOTE]
Well, the first thing I do is make sure that I am not dealing with bullshit claims. In the thread where the “86 hospitals” claim was put forth, it was noted that there was a circular argument in which a woman used numbers dug up by F.A.I.R. to estimate some number of hospital closings that was then used by F.A.I.R. as “proof” that such an event had transpired, but that no genuine data was actually presented.

In the same time period that the “86 hospitals” were purportedly closed because of illegal immigrants, the Cleveland metro area had seven hospitals fail, financially.

If the Cleveland numbers were applied to the Southwest, we would find

Population	State	ratio to Cleveland	expected Hospital failures
33,871,648	CA	22.58109867	        158
5,130,632	AZ	3.420421333	         24
1,819,046	NM	1.212697333	          8
20,851,820	TX	13.90121333	         97
61,673,146	total	41.11543067	        288

So, until the purported evidence that 86 hospitals actually failed due to illegal immigrants is provided (with supporting documentation), I am going to see this as simply scare tactics by F.A.I.R.

[magellan01]

[QUOTE=tomndebb]
Well, the first thing I do is make sure that I am not dealing with bullshit claims. In the thread where the “86 hospitals” claim was put forth, it was noted that there was a circular argument in which a woman used numbers dug up by F.A.I.R. to estimate some number of hospital closings that was then used by F.A.I.R. as “proof” that such an event had transpired, but that no genuine data was actually presented.

In the same time period that the “86 hospitals” were purportedly closed because of illegal immigrants, the Cleveland metro area had seven hospitals fail, financially.

If the Cleveland numbers were applied to the Southwest, we would find

Population	State	ratio to Cleveland	expected Hospital failures
33,871,648	CA	22.58109867	        158
5,130,632	AZ	3.420421333	         24
1,819,046	NM	1.212697333	          8
20,851,820	TX	13.90121333	         97
61,673,146	total	41.11543067	        288

So, until the purported evidence that 86 hospitals actually failed due to illegal immigrants is provided (with supporting documentation), I am going to see this as simply scare tactics by F.A.I.R.
[/QUOTE]

This is a new one! I don’t make a claim or use numbers because they were questioned and I don’t have the proof to satisfy your captious eye when looking at my side of the debate, and still you go out of your way to find fault. You pull a claim made by me and others in other threads that you whined about, which I leave that out of the argument altogether (talking, instead, about the cost of hospitals closing in a specific community), and STILL you bring it up to give you a platform to piss from.

Very fair of you. :rolleyes: And you have the balls to say you want to make sure you’re not dealing with bullshit?! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[GIGObuster]

[QUOTE=magellan01]
This is a new one! I don’t make a claim or use numbers because they were questioned and I don’t have the proof to satisfy your captious eye when looking at my side of the debate, and still you go out of your way to find fault. You pull a claim made by me and others in other threads that you whined about, which I leave that out of the argument altogether (talking, instead, about the cost of hospitals closing in a specific community), and STILL you bring it up to give you a platform to piss from.

Very fair of you. :rolleyes: And you have the balls to say you want to make sure you’re not dealing with bullshit?! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
[/QUOTE]

Least Original User Name Ever said “Would it be worth it?”

Then you replied:

I think so. In other threads we’ve had the costs of illegal aliens offered. I think California alone was $10 billion. And how do you calculate the cost of hospitals closing in a community. Or the poorer education your child gets because half his school is now made up of kids with English as not their primary language?

Sorry, but here you are indeed repeating information that had very little support, the one about illegals being the reason for the hospital closings.

Your tactic of throwing a tantrum when information is not to your liking is getting tiresome. Besides you can not say items like that and expect to be ignored.

Repeating items like that just shows a willingness to mislead, like earlier calling the plan of the senate an amnesty, the propaganda of the right calls it so, but it remains incorrect to call it that.

And DMC’s last post was not unbelievable, you once again show an unwillingness to see that since illegals are not bad people they deserve a chance to legalize their status. they will have to pay for their transgression, but legalizing their status is the humane solution.

[DMC]

[QUOTE=magellan01]
Unbelievable. Just, unbelievable.
[/QUOTE]
Indeed.

[magellan01]

[QUOTE=GIGObuster]
Sorry, but here you are indeed repeating information that had very little support, the one about illegals being the reason for the hospital closings.

Your tactic of throwing a tantrum when information is not to your liking is getting tiresome. Besides you can not say items like that and expect to be ignored.

Repeating items like that just shows a willingness to mislead, like earlier calling the plan of the senate an amnesty, the propaganda of the right calls it so, but it remains incorrect to call it that.

And DMC’s last post was not unbelievable, you once again show an unwillingness to see that since illegals are not bad people they deserve a chance to legalize their status. they will have to pay for their transgression, but legalizing their status is the humane solution.
[/QUOTE]

You know, before you reply to something, especially to isolated disputes between two parties neither of which is you, it might be nice if you understood what was being discussed. The point I made about hospitals had to do with the non-monetary cost to the community when they close, similar to the . The $10 billion number is unrelated, as it doesn’t take into account hospital closings. Th point I made about the cost of hospitals closing was rhetorical, as was the point about schools to which the sentence was linked. Here it is again:

And how do you calculate the cost of hospitals closing in a community. Or the poorer education your child gets because half his school is now made up of kids with English as not their primary language?

As to the point with DMC, well I’ll let you go back and try to figure that one out on your own. With the tiniest effort, even you should be able to grasp the issue that sparked my response of “unbelievable”. But if you choose to not make the effort, why don’t you impress me with your mind-reading abilities and explain why you think I posted “Unbelievable”. Here’s a hint: it has nothing whatsoever to do with the commentary you offered.

[randyjet]

[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever]

This problem isn’t about “illegals” at all. It’s about the status quo, racism, powrer, nativism, and money. How you tend to stand on those issues, you tend to fall on this issue (so it may seem).

I would agree with that somewhat in that there are indeed other underlying issues at work, and not soley illegal immigration. I agree that it is about the status quo in that we effectively have a relatively open border with Mexico and that we have about 12 million illegals here who are primarily of Latin American origins. One side wishes to keep that open and the other wants to enforce the laws. That is the reason for such strong opposition to the idea of a fence, not that it will not completely stop the immigration, but that it will stop too much of it.
I agree too that it is about racism in that one group. Latinos wish to increase their numbers by illegal and undemocratic means against the wishes of the vast majority of Americans as shown by various polls on the subject. I think it is the height of arrogance and racism to say that we don’t care what the majority of Americans of all races and colors think, we will do what we think best anyhow for our group. From my own personal experience and observations in Mexico, the ruling elite there is just as racist as any southern redneck. They are more than happy to get rid of their mainly darker countrymen to the US and out of their hair and the potential to cause them trouble. It is no coincidence that Pres. Fox’ mom was a white Spaniard. It also says something about Mexico that they had to change the Constitution to allow him to run since he was not native Mexican on both sides of his family.
Of course, this is about money and power as well. The GOP leaders and small businessmen in my area are all for more illegal immigrants since they are cheap and work hard. The big businesses love the vast increase in the labor pool since it keeps down wages and unions. You can go to some studies on that as well. From what I heard on Lou Dobbs the average wage in meatpacking has gone from around $19/hr to about $9/hr. Not coincidentally many of the meatpacking plants shut down on May 1st to accomodate their work force which is where most of the illegals are concentrated at present. I even recall Tyson was caught hiring people to recruit illegals and transport them to their factories. I don’t know where most people stand on that issue, but I think that most would think that falling wages is not a good thing for the rest of us.
The nativism is all on the other side as well. MECHA and others think that since the Southwest used to be part of Mexico, that they therefore have a right to live where they and their ancestors never lived just because it had once been part of that country. For those who subscribe to that kind of argument, I hope that they will extend it to more than just Mexicans. In that case, Russians can emmigrate to the US since they have that right, since Alaska used to be Russian. Or we should just let Russians charter some boats and come across to Alaska and then to the US since the Russian settlements went down the US coast as well. Such folks will get great support from the neo-Nazis in Germany since they want to restore all of what was historically and until very recently East Prussia to Germany. After WWII millions of Germans who had been there for centuries were forced from their homes and lands, as East Prussia was divided between Poland and Russia. The MECHAs and the German neo-Nazis have a lot in common. The neo-Nazis have the fact that their parents once actually lived in East Prussia and many of them may have actually been born there. The illegals coming into the US can make no such claim.
I don’t choose to stand on their side. I choose the side of democracy, and the rule of laws democratically decided upon. If others wish to increase or decrease the numbers of people allowed into the US, it is their right which I will defend as long as they do it through the democratic means that we have. I also demand that the laws be enforced since democracy means nothing if the power of the people is subverted and ignored.

Building a barrier doesn’t solve things. It’s simply running away from problems on a large scale. We need some sort of system-wide reform on many levels.
[/QUOTE]

I agree as well that there is no one solution to the problem, but I do insist that the will of the people of the US be respected by enforcing the laws that exist. A fence is but a start in that direction.

[GIGObuster]

[QUOTE=magellan01]
You know, before you reply to something, especially to isolated disputes between two parties neither of which is you, it might be nice if you understood what was being discussed. The point I made about hospitals had to do with the non-monetary cost to the community when they close, similar to the . The $10 billion number is unrelated, as it doesn’t take into account hospital closings. Th point I made about the cost of hospitals closing was rhetorical, as was the point about schools to which the sentence was linked. Here it is again:
[/quote]

:rolleyes:

Calling it rethoric does not excise it was a bullshit point.

As to the point with DMC, well I’ll let you go back and try to figure that one out on your own. With the tiniest effort, even you should be able to grasp the issue that sparked my response of “unbelievable”. But if you choose to not make the effort, why don’t you impress me with your mind-reading abilities and explain why you think I posted “Unbelievable”. Here’s a hint: it has nothing whatsoever to do with the commentary you offered.

:rolleyes:

One would think that this late you would have comprehended that avoiding answering, even if you think is not related, only shows who is the one willing to debate.

[magellan01]

[QUOTE=GIGObuster]
:rolleyes:

Calling it rethoric does not excise it was a bullshit point.

:rolleyes:

One would think that this late you would have comprehended that avoiding answering, even if you think is not related, only shows who is the one willing to debate.
[/QUOTE]

You must find this whole debate thing more challenging than I thought.

If someone thinks a point that is made is bullshit, they are perfectly within their rights to challenge that point. Not one that may be related but was NOT made.

I am completely willing to answer any question. And a fair look at even this one thread clearly demonstrates that. The point you were amazingly unable to grasp is the DMC has a question pending to him. Once he answers that I am more than happy to answer any question he might have.

Did you really not comprehend that or are you, once again, just looking for a fight? Chill out. Pay attention. Read. Think before posting. If you’re going to butt-in to private sub-discussions, know what the fuck you’re talking about. Is that too much to ask?

[GIGObuster]

While I agree a lot, there are some items I have to nitpick with Least Original User Name Ever

[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever]

Fox’ mom was a white Spaniard. It also says something about Mexico that they had to change the Constitution to allow him to run since he was not native Mexican on both sides of his family.
[/QUOTE]

Half the story makes it sound that they underhandenly changed it, the whole truth is that the people, fed up with the PRI party of Mexico, supported the constitutionally approved way to change the rules:

http://worldpolicy.org/globalrights/mexico/1996-WPJ-fall-Fox.html

Because his mother was born in Spain, Fox was ineligible. Most politicians would accept that as fate; Fox instead launched a campaign to amend the Constitution. He collected hundreds of thousands of signatures, and recruited the support of leading writers and intellectuals, including Carlos Fuentes and Octavio Paz. It worked. In 1993, the Constitution was amended, but with a curious twist. President Carlos Salinas delayed implementation until the year 2000, to prevent his nemesis from running—and possibly succeeding him—in 1994.

Three years later, Salinas is disgraced and in exile in Ireland, and Fox is in the second year of a six-year term as governor, with no constitutional impediment to running for the presidency.

[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever]

The nativism is all on the other side as well. MECHA and others think that since the Southwest used to be part of Mexico, that they therefore have a right to live where they and their ancestors never lived just because it had once been part of that country. For those who subscribe to that kind of argument, I hope that they will extend it to more than just Mexicans. In that case, Russians can emmigrate to the US since they have that right, since Alaska used to be Russian. Or we should just let Russians charter some boats and come across to Alaska and then to the US since the Russian settlements went down the US coast as well. Such folks will get great support from the neo-Nazis in Germany since they want to restore all of what was historically and until very recently East Prussia to Germany. After WWII millions of Germans who had been there for centuries were forced from their homes and lands, as East Prussia was divided between Poland and Russia. The MECHAs and the German neo-Nazis have a lot in common.
[/QUOTE]

Looking at their official site and remembering what they did at Berkeley (not much) I would agree most of the stuff said about Mecha is not true:

MEChA FAQ Frequently Asked Questions - Truth about MEChA

But that there are racist groups attempting to hijack the movement is true, the group called Aztlan for example. The good news is that they are indeed a minority, and Central Americans like me already offer a counter weight for any exclusive unlikely plans they have.

[QUOTE=randyjet]
I agree as well that there is no one solution to the problem, but I do insist that the will of the people of the US be respected by enforcing the laws that exist. A fence is but a start in that direction.
[/QUOTE]

Calling it a start is indeed proving the point of Least Original User Name Ever, seeing the proceedings in congress I have to say the most likely outcome is that nothing will change since there will be no compromise. And the most likely fence made will be just this pathetic symbol:

http://apnews.excite.com/image/20060527/BORDER_FENCE.sff_AZKB110_20060527225649.html?date=20060528&docid=D8HSQJ0O0

[GIGObuster]

Correction (and this needs to be repeated):

magellan01
You know, before you reply to something, especially to isolated disputes between two parties neither of which is you, it might be nice if you understood what was being discussed. The point I made about hospitals had to do with the non-monetary cost to the community when they close, similar to the . The $10 billion number is unrelated, as it doesn’t take into account hospital closings. Th point I made about the cost of hospitals closing was rhetorical, as was the point about schools to which the sentence was linked. Here it is again:

:rolleyes:

Calling it rethoric does not avoid the fact that it was a bullshit point.

[Least_Original_User_Name_Ever]

Originally Posted by I Don’t Even Know Who Anymore
The nativism is all on the other side as well. MECHA and others think that since the Southwest used to be part of Mexico, that they therefore have a right to live where they and their ancestors never lived just because it had once been part of that country. For those who subscribe to that kind of argument, I hope that they will extend it to more than just Mexicans. In that case, Russians can emmigrate to the US since they have that right, since Alaska used to be Russian. Or we should just let Russians charter some boats and come across to Alaska and then to the US since the Russian settlements went down the US coast as well. Such folks will get great support from the neo-Nazis in Germany since they want to restore all of what was historically and until very recently East Prussia to Germany. After WWII millions of Germans who had been there for centuries were forced from their homes and lands, as East Prussia was divided between Poland and Russia. The MECHAs and the German neo-Nazis have a lot in common.
I’m not against this at all. Actually, I think I’ve argued for it in this thread and others as well. If the problem is that some Mexicans see the land in the Southwest as their ancestral land (but have no paper trail to back it up) and you can provide a useful solution to it, then you’re WELL on the way to a Nobel Peace prize. This Mexican/American solution could be taken to help the Native American/Federal government situation, and even the Israel/Palestine problem, for there are eerily similar claims for those situations.

Note how the “wall” for Native Americans is pushing them to reservations. What kind of problems has that caused?

There is a very real wall build by Israel. How well is that working for them? How many resources do they have to divert to that wall? If “good fences make good neighbors”, how come Israel and Palestine don’t dine at the same table?(metaphorically speaking, of course.)
Both of those “solutions” aren’t. These three problems aren’t perfectly aligned, but there are shades of those problems in each of these instances. How do you get peace between Israel and Palestine? You need to reform the system. How can we start getting some useful solution out of our mishandling of the Natives? Coming up with a new solution that includes changing how they’re treated.

How do we fix this border problem? Make immigration and free flow of people through borders very easy and overhaul the system. Augment welfare. Embrace a second language, don’t stifle it. As Eddie Izzard said “the Dutch speak 4 languages and smoke marijuana. Yeah? Well they’re cheating!” Times change, people change, and problems arise when the system doesn’t change with those times. This is the time (actually, it’s past the time).

[magellan01]

[QUOTE=GIGObuster]
Correction (and this needs to be repeated):

:rolleyes:

Calling it rethoric does not avoid the fact that it was a bullshit point.
[/QUOTE]

I shall repeat, you or anyone else has the right to challenge any claim you consider bullshit. Which you haven’t done, except to claim it is bullshit. To refresh your memory, here is what you objected to. It is the highlighted part:

[QUOTE=magellan01]
And how do you calculate the cost of hospitals closing in a community. Or the poorer education your child gets because half his school is now made up of kids with English as not their primary language?
[/QUOTE]

So, if you consider it bullshit, why? Come on, smart guy, you know so much. Or are you actually of the opinion that a hospital closing in a community has no cost associated with it? That there is no negative effect to its closing?

[Gala_Matrix_Fire]

So MEChA is being demonized again? They were a student body organization at my university and I was a member of one of their subcommittees. I remember professors talking about a time when they were considered a radical and subversive group, but it didn’t seem believable. I guess we’ve turned full circle.

Does somebody have a link to a site that delves into the evil that is MEChA? I’d love to see that.

[tomndebb]

[QUOTE=magellan01]
I don’t make a claim or use numbers because they were questioned and I don’t have the proof to satisfy your captious eye when looking at my side of the debate, and still you go out of your way to find fault.
[/QUOTE]
So let me understand this: you posted

And how do you calculate the cost of hospitals closing in a community.

but what you are really saying is that we have no information that the event has ever occurred, therefore you are free to post it as a negative hypothetical, but no one else is permitted to challenge your use of this unsubstantiated hypothetical because you carefully avoided actually providing evidence?

Then, you get to get mad that the hypothetical (which you have chosen not to support with evidence) is being challenged with actual information?

That is a pretty clever method of argumentation, but I am unimpressed. Based on your premise, a person opposing your postion could post “How do you calculate the collapse of the Social Security System based on a lack of young workers entering the job market after you have eliminated all the people you are going to throw out of the country?” and you would be forbidden to respond since they did not provide any actual figures to be rebutted.

I don’t think it works that way.