Time Travelers and Creationists and Libertarians, Oh my!

An interesting story:

Joh Varley wrote a book Millenium about time travelers.

The story behind the story is this:

Varley was inspired by a brilliant but somewhat obsessed scientist who hypothesized that time travelers might be visiting us.

What could a time traveler do? What couldn’t they do? Why would they visit?

He gave these interesting thoughts the benefit of his intellect and came up with some compelling ideas.

A time traveler from the far future would be in constant danger of destroying his future and himself because of paradox (killing your own Grandpa.) So in order to make the trip worth while the stakes would have to be very high. He would be looking for something valuable he couldn’t get in his own time. The scientist could only speculate what it might be, but it was probably live humans and intact DNA from our period that the time traveler sought.

In order to be safest the time traveler would need to restrict his visits to places that were shortly about to cease to exist. Pompeii, the Titanic, airline crashes are all good examples. At such places the time traveler could work with relative impunity, remove people and artifacts, and replace them with the kind of debris likely to turn up in such instances and pass casual scrutiny without fear of creating paradox. This would be the kind of place to look for such travelers.

The scientist thought about the kind of mistakes such a time traveler might make, the kind of evidence he might leave behind by accident.

He did a couple of lectures and received some modest funding to pursue his interesting ideas.

He turned up absolutely nothing.

The funding dried up and that was that until the scientist reexamined his evidence, or more precisely his lack thereof. According to the scientist he should have had some false leads. Statistical anomaly, and experimental error suggested that he should have found some of the “evidence” he was looking for. Since his ideas had been published, was it possible that time travelers became aware of his efforts and covered up? Had they covered up to well, and by doing so betrayed their existence?

This was suspicious enough, that he gave some more lectures and got some new funding to pursue this train of thought and revisit his researches.

Oddly enough he soon found exactly the type of false evidence he had lacked the first time around.

Hmmm.

This suggested the interesting hypothesis that time travelers had become aware of his researches and made sure that they left none of the evidence the scientist sought. When the scientist pointed out that some of this should have been found by accident, the time travelers realized they had been too thorough and produced some of the false evidence to cover up their mistake.

The evidence in question pertained to matching up DNA found on clothing remnants, and in verifying the originality of the clothing from its manufacturer on the victims of airplane crashes.

Yeah right! thought his backers who were beginning to suspect that the scientist was getting a little wooly in the head. They cut the funding.

Undeterred, the scientist devised a plan to gather evidence to prove the existence of time travelers. In order to do so he needed to operate in total secrecy because once the nature of his evidence became known, the time travelers would become aware of it, and could simply go back in time and discredit it.

So he implemented his plan and after a time he declared success. Of course, he could not submit his evidence for scrutiny for the above mentioned reasons. He did make an interesting offer though. He would let a few mutually agreed upon experts examine his evidence. They would swear not to reveal the nature of this evidence in order to protect its integrity, but would only rule on its validity.

The terms were worked out and the experts examined the scientist’s evidence.

They found it to be wholly without merit.

Of course! Said the scientist. Obviously one of them had leaked information about the evidence. It had become known to the time travelers, who then went back in time and discredited it!

This in itself was proof that time travelers had been interfering.

What more evidence did they need?!!!

It was largely agreed upon that the scientist had flipped his lid and gone mad.

Of course it was entirely possible that everything the scientist said was true, and his experiments were being sabotaged by time travelers. The far more likely explanation however was that the scientist had come across some interesting anomalies, concocted a theory to put them together, and desperately wanted it to be true in spite of evidence to the contrary.

Unfortunately the theories did not pass the test of Occam’s razor. The facts could be explained quite easily with currently understood phenomena. No time travelers were needed.

The problem was that the scientist started with a theory that he wanted to be true. When the evidence did not completely disprove his theory he took that as proof, even though it could be explained otherwise.

The story is probably not true. Maybe DavidB or somebody else heard it before.

After having heard this story, do you now believe in time travelers?

If you do you are foolish.

By extension, if the existence of life and the universe can be explained with current biology, and physics, why do we need to posit a creator, or creationism? Isn’t the explanation that most credibly fits the known facts the preferable one? Why is this seen as a threat to faith? To me, the idea of big bang followed by billions of years of evolution points to a much more subtle and majestic, and grander God then the hokey God of Genesis who slaps the world together in seven days, floods it, and is constantly meddling in the affairs of humans.

I have no idea if this kind of thinking displayed by our unfortunate scientist has a name, but I see a lot of it both on this board, and in life.

Denial ain’t just a river.

Why wouldn’t the time travelers just go back and prevent the scientist from publishing any papers on the subject? Or go back to when he was a teen-ager and convince him to become a firefighter or something instead of a scientist? Why didn’t this book bring up these possibilities? Did someone think of these extra possibilities, but get his work erased because time travellers came and — DATA ERROR — what was I saying? Oh yeah, I was saying I agree with the OP and there would have been nothing else the time travellers could have done, therefore time travel doesn’t exist. I’m sure of it now.

BTW, Millenium was made into a horrible movie starring, of all people, Kris Kristofferson and Cheryl Ladd. Avoid at all costs


Having an open mind means you put out a welcome mat and answer the door politely. It does not mean leaving the door open and with a sign saying nobody’s home

I am intrigued by your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Tracer:

The time travelers can’t interfere just anywhere. They can only safely travel to the sites of disasters shortly before they occur.

Since this is where the scientist is also looking for them, this is where the search for and the tampering with evidence of their existence is restricted to. THey can’t just change anything.

Bigdaddy:

Yes, this is important work. I’ll be glad to tell you where to send a check so that this research can continue :slight_smile:

Scylla, I think I understood the point of your OP; that there are some people out there so in love with their theories that they feel they’re supported by any evidence, even contrary evidence.

In addition to your example; “time travelers must exist because who else would have the ability to destroy all evidence of the exstence of time travelers” and creationists; “God must exist because who else would have the ability to fake all the physical evidence proving evolution is real”, there’s the JFK conspirators “the Conspiracy must really be everywhere in order to have created all the evidence that Oswald acted alone” and the Illuminati nuts “the Illuminati must have existed for centuries, how else could they have had history rewritten to conceal their existence?” and the probably apocryphal WWII general who said “the fact that we have found no evidence of Japanese-American saboteurs proves how dangerous they are.”

Little Nemo:

Thank you very much. That’s exactly the point I’m trying to make.

Now if we could just here from a creationist or two…

I’ll have to look up the Joe Haldeman short story that talks about time travel. But the basic problem is easy enough to describe.

Suppose you’re traveling backwards in time, say from 2000 to 1950. That’s ‘well defined’, as the mathematicians describe it: there’s only one past to travel back through.

OK, you get to 1950, and you want to go back to 2000. Now things aren’t well defined at all.

Even if your arrival in 1950 affects nothing (a false assumption - just the fact of your popping into the past is going to move a few air molecules around, at least), quantum probability is going to cause sub-atomic particles to bounce different ways than they did before. Eventually, one of those bounces is going to make a measurable difference. (Sensitive dependence on initial conditions, better known as the ‘butterfly effect.’) From there, the course of events will continue to diverge from the history of events from 1950 to 2000 as we, chattering today on the SDMB, know it. A different 2000 will result.

And you may not be able to get there, except by the slow boat: living through the 50 years from 1950 to 2000, if you’re young enough for that. Your time machine, after all, has no way of knowing the outcomes of all the quantum branchings that it’s skipping past as it attempts to travel forward from 1950 to 2000. It doesn’t know which 2000 to put you in - it can’t even keep track of all the possible 2000s. (Is the number of possible 2000s finite, countably infinite, or uncountably infinite, as seen from the vantage point of 1950? Even if finite, it’s got to be an extremely large number.)

In short, even if time travel is possible (in the sense of going from point A to point B in time, without having to live through the intervening time), it seems that the only possible direction would be backwards. Personally, I like modern conveniences too much to part with them - I think I’ll skip that trip. After all, there’s no SDMB in 1950. :slight_smile:

Scylla said:

Why? :slight_smile:

I mean, really, do you expect them to see your posts and say, “My gosh! They’re right!” No. They’re going to accuse you of being anti-Christian, and a nasty guy to boot. You’re just picking on religion. Yadda yadda yadda.

RT:

The story is called “Dealing in futures.”

I’m not trying to defend time travel or the evidence of time travelers (Though that would be fun)

I’m trying to get the creationist viewpoint on the applicationn of the kind of logic I’ve attributed to the scientist.

Is there a name for it?

No! I own a copy of the movie and love it! It’s HIGH CHEESE, and who could ask for better leads! :smiley:

Esprix, who recommends the book as well


Ask the Gay Guy!

I’m not sure if there’s a name for that sort of logic, but I see what you’re driving at now. Good luck!

Glad to find another Haldeman fan, though. I’m a big fan of his, especially his short stories.

RTFirefly: I am certainly not saying that time travel is possible, but it is possible that small changes do not cause a large number of divergent futures because they could balance out or, more likely, fade out. It is equally possible that the possible futures are dead ends that converge as the ripple effect fades away unless the change is very significant.

For example, let’s say I go back in time and eat a grape that Hitler was going to eat (in an amusing attempt maybe to starve him). So instead he eats a different grape to satisfy his hunger. But that grape gives him indigestion. So he doesn’t order the start of Operation Barbarosa until two days later. But it is possible that Operation Barbarosa occurs in the exact same manner except shifted by two days (every person who “originally” died still dies, etc). Maybe instead of stalling on a cloudy day a particular happens on a sunny day speeding up the German advance by two days. There are many possibilities but if the small effect fades out than the futures may not be necessarilly divergent by the year 2000. The may just be little detours in effect.

1950 ==================== 2000
… =========/
… 2 days of different events
… that have the same net cause

Hmmm.

No creationists have responded. DavidB predicted that they would not want to confront such an argument and it appears that he is correct.

The experiment is a success. The fact that no creationists have posted this thread is clear proof that such creationists exist.

If they didn’t exist they would have posted by now, right?

RTFireFly: Actually, time travel into the future is the easy part. All you have to do is travel sufficiently close to the speed of light, and approx. 1 yr can pass for you while 50 yrs goes by on earth. This type of time travel has been well documented, albeit on a smaller scale. Time travel into the past is the tricky part.

Straight Dope or not, I would be happy to go back to the 50’s.

I’m 26 now, I would be 76 by the time I rejoined you guys here right now.

Of course I would be an owner in Microsoft, Apple, Amazon.com, etc…

Can you imagine the odds of betting that Bucky Dent was going to hit homerun to win the '78 world series for the Yankees? :slight_smile:

I would hang out at Dealy Plaza and get the scoop on what really happened.

Shoot, I am going to start writing out of list of stuff I want to invest in or experience just in case I get an offer to head on back!!!

Send me back. Screw the alternate futures, I would stay and become unbelievably rich. :slight_smile:

And it is precisely the former God I believe in. I’ve never understood the compulsion to believe in a Divine Being but then expect that Being to conform to a strict set of fiercely un-divine characteristics and behaviors. I opt for subtle, majestic grandeur.

As far as the applying the time traveler’s circular explanations to the origins of all that grandeur, well, I don’t suppose the believer has much choice. After all, despite the efforts of science, we’re all still trying to explain the unexplainable. Occam simply helps us predict the likelihood of our many theories. All things being equal, it’s hard to argue logically against the idea that the progression of life is its own justification. Maybe that’s why many garden-variety creationists resort to such far-flinging rationalizations for their beliefs—to rationalize a belief is a losing proposition.

I believe that an omnipotent God could (and would) create a universe in accordance with natural, predictable laws, and that said universe could reasonably be expected to continue operating by those same laws. However, I don’t think anyone believes we understand or have even identified any significant portion of these laws. Big Bang? I’m all for it, until a better theory comes down the pike.

And why not sacrifice god to Occam? For me, it’s is only because I chose to proscribe a purpose to everything. A purpose that is served by the seemingly purposeless mess of injustices and atrocities that make up human existence.

My personal ideas (not that you asked) go along these lines: we existed prior to this life and will continue to do so afterwards. Earth life provides a unique environment where many of us have a divine opportunity to learn and progress in ways we couldn’t possibly under other circumstances. We are free to believe and to act according to the dictates of our consciences. Our choices determine the course of progression. Truly, many innocent lives are sacrificed to provide us with this singular opportunity.

Is it all just circular delusion and unnecessary explanation? Ration and logic (and Occam) say yes. I honestly appreciate that, and as a more-or-less logical person I do sometimes feel burdened by my pesky but unshakeable faith. I won’t, however, do both faith and logic the injustice of trying to justify one with the other. Ask me why I believe, and you’ll only get a shrug and a smile.

Oh, and as for God’s constant meddling, jeez, the poor guy can’t win. If he allows his creations to run amok, then he is an absent god. If he intervenes, he’s a busy body. What’s a deity to do? :slight_smile:

Wah? Make that ascribe, and scratch the is. And then pelt me with small rocks.

Dirt:

Thank you. What a thoughtful and excellent reply. Then again I also happen to agree with you so I may be prejudiced here.

:slight_smile:

Thanks for the kind words, Scylla. I’m always pleasantly surprised if any coherent thought escapes my rambling.

Oh, and speaking of escaping, I sort of lost my train of thought at the end of that 3rd-to-final paragraph {damn ADDS!). I meant to add that while innocent lives are sacrificed in the name of free will, I chose to believe that these injustices will be somehow “ironed out” after this life, and that any divine judgment will take into account our individual opportunities (or lack thereof), in addition to our choices and actions. [/pretty belief system]