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Not enough servers, service lacking: 15% Tip
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Plenty of servers, service lacking: No Tip
Sorry about the boggled mind
Where I live many people have a reputation for undertipping or stiffing the waiters. One person I knew who waited quit because a third of the time she would get 50 or less cents…and there was nothing lacking in her service.
And another thing…often when I am out I notice quite a few people leaving exact 15 or 20% tips, so there might be two dollars and a pile of change. I don’t like coins in tips and always round up, and I always have assumed that was just good manners.
I can’t eat out with my parents, or any of my relatives over 50, unless I ask to be excused to the restroom as we are leaving the door. On the way back I go by the table, remove the pile of pennies and dimes they have left, and put a ‘decent’ amount. They think two dollars or so is as big as a tip should ever get.
They all think I just have a bladder condition.
I didn’t know about the not leaving coins thing. My habit has always been to leave a tip based on the percentage of the bill plus all the spare change I have in my purse. When this has been a noticable amount and I’ve apologized for leaving so many coins, the response has invariably been `hey, all money spends the same,’ or something along that line. If the service is good, of course. If the service is bad, I don’t tip at all.
IRS only taxes waiters as if they were getting 8% tips, so everything you tip beyond that is gravy. Whoever says that tips are now going north of 15% probably got their info from a restaurant workers union. 15% is the standard tip for standard/average service and don’t let anyone con you into believing otherwise. If you get exceptional service, tip 20-25%. If you get lousy service, leave a penny under your plate, and the waiter is sure to get the message.
Sorry, but you may be an expert as a waitstaff, but not as a Tax expert. My-Brother-the-tax-expert says you are wrong here. Although indeed 8% is a general guideline- that is only in restaurants where tipping is customary- in Buffets & Cafeterias for example, there is no minimum. You also have the right to keep a “timely kept log” of all your tip amounts, and thus decrease or increase what the restaurant assumes for your tips. He notes you may use Form 4070A to keep track of such tips. He gave me this quote (talking about “employees who customarily recieve tips”) “If it can be shown that the average tips are not 8% of gross sales the employer or a majority of employees may apply to the IRS to have the allocation reduced from 8%, but not below 2% (Code Sec 6053)”. He says that almost no waitsaff EVER bothers with the a corrct log, and simply accepts whatever figire th eemployer/IRS has come up with.
But back to the OP. CKDex talks about "expectations ". Let me get this straight- I get a dinner that comes out to $20- pre tax. I leave a $3 tip. However, with tax I’d leave a 3.21 tip. Do you really expect me to believe that the waitress is going to calculate that out in her head, and be disapointed by that lack of 21 CENTS!:dubious: :rolleyes:
And I completely agree about why the tip rate should be increasing. Why? 12% was good enough for my dad, and my mom was happy to get 10%. Sure- costs have gone up- but not just for waiters & waitresses.:rolleyes: Now, if the “standard tip” was say “a dollar”- sure, you’d expect it to increase. But it is a percentage dudes, not a fixed amount- and the minimum wage (even that reduced amount paid to waitstaff) and more importantly the cost of dining out has kept pace with inflation. (eating out more so, min wage less so)
Let me give you an example: let us say my mom as a waitress was getting 10% of her average bill in the late fifties- which was $1.50 for lunch in a coffee shop. That would be 15cents (she was real happy if this got her a quarter). Now we are here in 2003- and that same lunch now costs $10- which yeilds $1 @ 10%. Sure if the tip was still 15 cents, then it would be too low- but the cost of the meals in the restaurants has kept pace with inflation- thus a 10% tip yields the same “pre-inflation” amount in 2003 that it did in 1958. Thus, a waitress getting $1 from her $10 customer in 2003 should be just as pleased as my mom was getting 15cents from her $1.50 customer.
WHY ARE WE NOW EXPECTED TO PAY TWICE AS MUCH? (in adjusted for inflation dollars)
<< Let me get this straight- I get a dinner that comes out to $20- pre tax. I leave a $3 tip. However, with tax I’d leave a 3.21 tip. Do you really expect me to believe that the waitress is going to calculate that out in her head, and be disapointed by that lack of 21 CENTS! >>
Let me put it the other way. You get a dinner that comes out to $20 post tax. You leave a $2.71 tip, based on the pre-tax amount. Do you really expect the waiter to figure out that you were tipping on the pre-tax amount?
C K Dexter Haven, I appreciate your dry logic here, but I have come to terms long ago with the fact that some people, aka DrDeth, are just looking for any reason in the world why they can save themselves a quarter, or a buck, or even five bucks, and still “get away with it” in their own minds.
You know, honestly, I give impeccable service 9 times out of 10. And yet I don’t get an impeccable tip 9 times out of 10. The only explanation is that some people are cheap. And of course, they’re not satisfied with just acknowledging that they’re cheap; they want a reason to be cheap, and also a reason why they shouldn’t feel…you know, cheap.
And I have more respect for an honest cheapskate than a customer who either insists that since a 10% tip was OK in his mother’s day, it should be OK now, or that I’m just as happy to get a verbal tip. (A Verbal Tip is the whole “Oh my God, you were so wonderful, you gave such great service, your margaritas are incredible” line, plus a crappy-ass tip. This is probably the most insulting thing you can do to me.)
So you know, for all the people who worry about tipping pre-tax/post-tax, for all the people who want to know why they have to tip at all, for all the people who want to know why the hell tipping percentages have gone up…why are you worrying about it? If you don’t want to tip the norm, or tip respectably, or tip at all…don’t do it! Nobody’s holding a gun to your head. And cooler, more generous people will take your place the moment you leave.
So all I ask is that you don’t linger. OK?
And we’ll call it even.
[sub]Jesus! It isn’t enough to be cheap anymore. You gotta have a justification. C’mon.[/sub]
“for all the people who want to know why the hell tipping percentages have gone up…why are you worrying about it?”
Because, and call me TOTALLY CRAZY here, we’d like to know what you waiters have done to suddenly deserve a 33% raise, and why tipping 15% is somehow “cheap.”
“And cooler, more generous people will take your place the moment you leave.”
Ah, so your definition of “cool” is directly related to the size of the bribe.
By the way, do you work in a fancy suit-and-tie restaraunt with a huge wine list, or just a normal eatery? Because if it’s the latter…
Think about one disappearing job: what was the last time somebody pumped your gas for you?
My personal economic theory is that we’ll see more and more cheap-to-middle cost restaraunts move to self-service as a way of cutting costs by reducing headcount. People like to be served, but they also like to save money - which explains why buffet places are always packed.
This will mean that lots of former waiters with attitude problems will be out on the street with no marketable skills… I hope a Republican is in office when this happens.
Restaurants are the only businesses that I can think of that don’t require business owners to pay their workers minimum wage. Customers are expected, through tipping, to pay the remainder of their salaries. Can you imagine if your Doctor or your auto repair or the grocery clerk worked this way?
Why do minimum wage laws make exceptions for restaurants? Why does the owner of a restaurant not have to take the same risks on finding qualified, skilled, pleasant workers that every other business owner must take? I just don’t get it.
We, the consumers are duped into paying workers salaries when it really should be the responsibilty of the business owner. Then, let the market decide how it’s worth to get a decent meal with good service.
JRR, a 15% tip is not “cheap.” I was referring to DrDeth’s extended Ode To the Day Of the 10% Tip.
And I don’t wait tables; I bartend at a bar/restaurant. I waited tables for five years, however, at everything from corporate chains to expensive martini bars. And I won’t ever do it again; I hated waiting tables.
And honestly, you have a point re: the popularity of counter/buffet style restaurants vs. traditional waiting restaurants. I agree with you. Do I think they’ll go away completely? No. Do I think other alternatives will rise in popularity? Yep.
But I bartend, and people will always want to drink, so as far as “job security” goes, I’m not worried, my dear JRR. (Not that I want to bartend forever, but you see my point.)
And as for your complaint, Wa Wa, restaurants have very powerful lobbyists to see to it that minimum wage doesn’t rise for servers and bartenders. So write your congressman if you’ve got a problem with it, but until then, it isn’t my fault that you have chosen a sit-down restaurant and would like to be waited on. As JRR observes, there are more and more places every day that don’t require you to tip anyone; I suggest seeking those places out if it really bothers you to tip your waiter.
Oh, and one more thing, JRR. Yes, the “coolness” of a customer is directly related to the size of their tip. (Is it a bribe? Considering the fact that I don’t usually get it til I’m finished serving them, I can’t see how that’s possible. A bribe is usually offered at the beginning; a tip is generally given at the end.) I’m sorry if this offends you, but yes, I give great service with the expectation of a great tip. And I judge customers based on their tip, the same way they judge me based on my service. I fail to see how this could pose a problem for anyone with half a brain. Of course I’m here for the money! Why else would I show up to work?
I’m very surprised at some of the opinions that I’ve seen in this thread, it would take hours to cover them all, so I’ll try to be brief.
Tipping percentages are guidelines not pre-defined amounts. Too many people get caught up inthe percentage game that they lose track of the actual dollar amount that they’re giving to their server. Say your bill comes to $10, you spent maybe a half hour or 45 minutes in there, if you tip %15 you give the server $1.50. You could have easily spent the same amount of time in the same place, but ordered $30 worth of food. The servers tip (if you go by the %15 guideline) is now $4.50. They did no extra work, and yet you gladly pay the extra $3 without even blinking.
I realize that this goes against my general reasoning (to follow), but it seems to me to illustrate the lack of logic in a %15 rule.
That $3 difference may not mean much to you, but since it happens to be at least double the server’s hourly pay, it matters significantly to the server. Why does this matter? Because tipping is the manner in which the server is expected to recieve the bulk of their earnings, both by the government and their employer. Sad but true. Why don’t they find other jobs? They usually make enough to be at least reasonably well paid.
Let’s give the servers the absolute minimum percentage allowable by the rule. Hmm, do you think that reasonably competent people would no longer work in such a profession? I bet the fast food workforce would have to take over the restaurant market right quick. You get what you pay for, literally.
Those that are so quick to “bite the hand that feeds them”, need to come to terms with that dollar or two that separates them from being a decent tipper. If $2 means that much to you, then maybe you nee to get a better job.
In the end, shitty tips will get you shitty service every time.
Ah- so for decades every person who tipped what was then the expected & customary tip- was “cheap”? You called me cheap- even though I did not say I tipped 10%- that was what my Mom got lo these many years ago- and that SHE did not think was “cheap”. How is it that you can now here- without knowing what it was like in 1959 being a waitress- declare that my Mom was wrong- and that her 10% customers were in fact “cheap”?
But you dodge my question (and theat of several others, like JRR). 10% was NOT “cheap” back then. Why is it now? Are you working harder than my Mom did?
I will admit that the response I have read here from waitstaff- such as calling me cheap without having any iea of how much I tip- have not endeared me to your profession. It seems that politeness- which was common in my Mom’s day and which garnered her that 10%- is now lacking. If you- or your attitude- is telling customers that YOU think they are “cheap” damn right they will be. Since my Mom was a server, I have always made sure to tip well- I just don’t understand how/why we are now heading off to 20% & 25% without a corresponding increase in service.
Dnooman- how is it that “shitty tips will get you shitty service every time” when the server does not know the size of their tip until after they are done serving? Or is is perhaps that the last person gave a "shitty tip’- thus I (being the next customer) get the “shitty service”- thus this deserves a “shitty tip”, thus more “shitty service”. Hell- now dnooman wants us to go to THIRTY % ($3 on a $10 bill!)- just to be a “decent tipper”. Thus, I would assume 40>50% to be a “good” tipper. Bullshit.
So far, I haven’t seen a justification for even 15% (which I do pay), let alone 50%. :dubious:
So tell me, oh waitstaff/waiters/waitresses/servers- do you do twice as much as my Mom did ? Why do you deserve twice the tip, then (in %).
Well, I came back to see if anyone had come up with a good answer as to the “creeping percentages” with tipping, but as DrDeth has pointed out, it ain’t happened yet! (But a tip o’ the antlers to Capt. Tiny Brain for not taking my “cheapskate” attempt at humor seriously!)
What about buffet where they bring you a drink but you’re responsible for obtaining your own food? (i.e. most hotel breakfasts) I’d always heard 10% for buffet and paid that, rounding up to the next dollar (but never less than $2). Am I being a tightwad?
How about Mongolian BBQ? It’s a buffet, but the server brings drinks and the standard side dishes (soup and sesame bread). But you usually tip the cook $1 separately directly at the grill, so the server doesn’ t need to tip out to the cook. How much am I expected to pay in this case? I always thought I was playing it safe by paying 15% + $1/serving cook’s tip. So am I being generous (above and beyond the 10% expected for buffet) or a cheapskate (less that the new-and-improved 20% rate)?
Looks like you’re getting it, it’s a viscious circle, and not one that makes that much sense. If you are a recognized repeat customer who’s a bit on the stingy side, your service will not be top notch. Unfortunately servers do tend to take out their anger from previous stiffs on other tables. If everyone decided that %15 was the absolute most that they would tip, lots of servers would quit. Who would replace them…people willing to settle for less. Do you think that their level of service will be as good, of course not.
You are a slave to the percentage rule. If your friend picked up the check and said “I’m thinking about giving her $5 does that sound good” you would need to know the total, because you have to tip %15. Did her degree of service warrant 5 extra dollars, you don’t care, it’s all in the percentage. She may give me the best service I’ve ever had but if my food is inexpensive then her service is worth exactly $2.34.
I’m beginning to think that you just skimmed my post. Let go of that dollar that you’re clenching, you’ll both be happier.
Oh, one more question. Regarding coinage: If the server brings back coins as part of your change, is it a faux pas to leave the coins as part of the tip? (Assuming that the total amount of bills + coins covers the expected percentage?) Usually if I’m in a group where we pool the check, it’s easier to just pay even dollar amounts and leave the coins on the tray with the tip? Have we been being gauche all this time?
This is a thorny issue.
In the UK if the bill comes with the gratuity included as an item an the bill (often 12.5 percent) and you didn’t like the service then your legal position is clear. You don’t haveto pay it. Just tell them that you did not like the service and get them to to re-issue the bill with that item removed. I doid that once in a chinese restaurant in central london after a works evening - there were fifteen of us there eating and drinking and the bill wqs large but the service was useless and the food arrived wrong and at the the wrong time mostly. The head waiter didn’t like it (no cut for him) and when his potestation failed to move me he even said he would fetch the police, so I told him to fetch them as soon as possible. He quickly recanted!
The part about US tipping that puzzled me was the gratuities handed out a taxi ranks - or the hotel. When the hotel ordered a cab for me (thes was LA not NY if that makes a difference) when the cab arrived money would change hands between the hotel employee and the cab driver - befor I even got out the door of the hotel ! What was all that about ? Was I supoosed to add to the tip to make up this amount. Same thing happened to the guy out side the Beverly Centre who raised is arm and the guy (who were in clear vision 20 yards) away dispatched one of the waiting cabs for us. that looked a like a cushy number to me an an obvious job creation scheme so he got nothing from me.
I am sure I made a mess of this and upset a few folks in my attempts to get it right - I know I made a few extra happy as well so . .
As for tipping based on the price of the meal - well yes sort of. If the wine list is good and well explored it can easily exceed the price of the meal - but I see no reason for the tip to be based on the price of the wine.
yes I pay more for the tip in a higher class place but I am much more critical of the service and food delivery. If the food isn’t as I speciffied it of they have made an obvious error in preparation and if the table anit dressing aren’t great at a high class place they will get short shrift.
As for waiter/staff ‘influencing’ the meals for known bad tippers - that is deplorable, illegal and dangerous. Its okay if they let the customers put additives in their food when the service is bad is it ? or get the wages reduced perhaps ?
Of course the is lot of employee exploitation in the service industries but in the food bsuiness in the west the baksheesh culture is more firmly engrained than the in the third world. sounds like the bartender in US restaurants is making a fortune in tips to me.
One of the things that keep a customer coming back is good food,
a good atmosphere, well prepared and well presented and pleasant efficient (not fawning or effusive) service - no matter the market segment.
get those ingerdients right and you will be fighting customers away and can charge what you like within your market segment.
A restauarnt near me is that good and on busy night you can’t book a table - they have two main sitting and tell you when you can come. And they are always full to the seams on those nights.
The existing markup in food and drink as you go upscale is already enormous and it is arguable that the bsusinesses ther can afford to pay people what they need.
when it smore mass market and the staff are obviously being run ragged and looking after a lot of customers I am much more figiving.
Havindgsaid all that I think I do tip well when the complete package received is good.
But can someone please explain this taxi/money thing in LA ?
Jaun…
Something else to consider about the restaurant tip.
If your tab comes to several hundred dollars or more, the difference becomes more than just a buck or two. It’s often a big dinner that brings controversy to the how and why of tipping.
Also, when a restaurant applies a mandatory “tip” to a bill, whatever the rate, the gratuity is always applied to the before-tax total. Right?
So people, let’s get together on this, tip before tax.