I remember growing up, when I found out that New York used to be New Amsterdam, that I was somewhat disappointed by that turn of events. Sort of took it as a personal afront for a moment or two.
You need to get over it.
The Plains of Abraham was just a small part of a massive and prolonged effort by the English crown to penetrate and defeat the defenses of a small colonial outpost controlled by the French crown. The result was very little change for the people.
And you can take a lesson from the English when it comes to celebrating defeats.
Back in 1967, when we were all celebrating our new self government under the confederation of 1867, the English were celebrating the biggest defeat in their naval history at the hands of the Dutch for one whole week.
Dutchman, I would never presume to tell another national group how to feel about historical attacks, defeats and conquests of their ancestors. It would be arrogant of me to tell the English whether or not to “get over” something. I would never tell the Irish not to be offended by a celebration of the Battle of the Boyne.
I would have to be English or Irish and put myself in their place and in their own state of mind. Otherwise I would have to respect how they feel.
What if a group of Americans wants to recreate the Mexican War of 1846-48, which allowed the US to seize enormous territories from Mexico? The proposed recreation could include victorious American troops reenacting every battle that was fought on Mexican soil right up to the final surrender of the Mexicans. And what if the Mexican people said they found this provocative and humiliating? Is it your place to tell them to “get over it”?
If someone in 2011 wants to commemorate, for example, the 9-11 attacks complete with dummies to represent bodies leaping to their deaths off the buildings, and the US population feels it would be tasteless, it is not up to me to tell Americans to “get over it” and join in the event.
Me too. I do presume to tell you as an individual. Furthermore, I would never presume to tell another national group not to celebrate an historical event.
Unless of course it is done with malicious intent.
Dumbest post in thread. Congratulations on taking what was becoming in your absence, a decent thread and consigning it to the murky depths of moronic self indulgence that likely only you could know.
It’s also exactly what many anglophone Canadians think of Quebecois. For the most part you’re doing a great job explaining the Quebecois side of things for the benefit of those who are actually interested in listening, but when you get into describing people who aren’t like you, it’s just… well, it’s amazing.
You’re all describing each other in precisely the terms that are used to describe you, and that fact is just hopelessly ignored. Nobody seems to notice it, and I don’t understand why.
I never said English Canadians cannot celebrate the Conquest in 2009 if they wish. I simply said that it would be provocative and tasteless to celebrate it in Quebec City or in Quebec Province. There are plenty of places in English Canada where celebrating the Conquest would be a big hit, I am sure.
Nobody has ever told Orangemen in Northern Ireland they cannot celebrate the Battle of the Boyne. It is only when they have the insensitivity and malicious desire to march through Catholic neighbourhoods that it becomes an issue.
I fail to see what difference it makes whether you tell me as an individual or Quebecois as a group. I still don’t see why you have a right to dictate what feelings I and other Quebecois should have towards an event.
Of course I was exagerating for effect. For one thing, anyone who tried to hold a re-enactment of 9-11 complete with dummies falling off a skyscraper in Manhattan would be either picked up by Homeland Security or lynched by an American mob.
But the fact remains that somewhere, especially on September 11, 2011, the 10-year anniversary of 911, somebody is going to be celebrating the victory of their cause brought about by the holy martyrs who gave their lives to strike at the Great Satan. And if you and I see footage of those celebrations, we will probably both find it offensive.
Now you may feel there is no comparison between 9-11 and the Plains of Abraham. Perhaps there is little to compare. Then again, no two events are the same, and no two events have the same significance or the same historical resonnace. The Battle of the Boyne is about 100 years OLDER than the Battle of the Plains of Abraham, but it continues to be the source of more friction. The controversy over the P of A re-enactment is relatively mild compared to what goes on in Ireland every July 12.
There is no statute of limitations on how people and national groups feel about something. Many Japanese may even today feel that the Bataan Death March was nothing more than their troops keeping order among a large group of American POWs with a few excesses that were blown out of proportion by war propaganda. But I will not tell Americans to “get over it”.
It is the arrogance of people who are not privy to my experience and sentiments telling me to “get over it” that I find objectionable.
That’s nice. In 1759 my ancestors were in living in Danzig, Prussia, shortly to emigrate to the Ukraine to accept an offer of land and freedom from military service (being pacifist Mennonites, that was an issue with the Prussians) from Catherine the Great. So if I’m commemorating the Battle of the Plains of Abraham, I’m not doing it as a conqueror.
A nerve? No, I’m just staggered by the seemingly endless supply of drivel that you manage to pack into a single OPs. Comparing 9/11 to a set piece battle between 2 continental antagonists in the middle of a classic European power struggle takes a rare intellectual talent that few would dare to match.
According to your profile you live in Ottawa, Grey, so we may be a few km. away from one another. I live in Gatineau, just across the river from Ottawa. And you are not aware that any French-Canadian would know immediately what is meant by la Conquête, probably the central point of their history? The fact that you may not use the term is not the point. The point is whether it is your place to tell Quebecers how to feel about it.
The fact of the matter is that this subset of Quebecers that care enough to link themselves to a collection of New France/French peasantry from the 18th century call it a Conquest. Those “others”, the humiliation inducing “Conquerors”, name it after the place of battle. I think that’s fascinating. It’s almost like you’re looking for a cross to nail yourself too and you’re upset I’m not passing up a hammer.
No, there aren’t. There very likely is not one single place in the entirety of Canada, not one town, city or community, where anyone has any interest in such a thing. If there were they’d celebrate it. But nobody does. When did you last year about a big Plains of Abraham party? Never, of course. No Canadian celebrates the Battle of the Plains of Abraham, unless there’s some jovial smoker going on in the history department of some university somewhere. It’s never been a cause for celebration, never been the subject of celebration, and indeed never been the subject of anything except, well, history class.
It’s something that interests people who’re into history and that’s about it. Most Canadians - I’d guess at least 98% of them - could not tell you what day of the year the battle occurred.
You can’t simply spew falsehoods and pretend they’re truth. We tend to catch that sort of thing on the SDMB.
First of all, do you have any statistics on this alleged “subset of Quebecers”, because in my experience “la Conquête” is as instantly understood as “the Troubles” in Ireland, “the Depression” in the US and most of the western world, or “the War” would have been in say, 1948. Since you live within a couple of hours’ drive of a few million of your fellow French-speaking Canadians, it astounds me that you would not know this.
I suppose you might meet an ignorant Quebecer who knows nothing about history for whom “la Conquête” has no meaning, but that is likely to happen anywhere in any society.
If Anglo-Canadians like to avoid the term “Conquest”, might it be because it clashes with their self-indulgent historical viewpoints on the Battle of the Plains of Abraham and its subsequent effects?
I am not spewing falsehoods, I am stating what I have observed. Judging by the comments I read on discussion forums in Canada, by letters I read in various English-language Canadian newspapers, when the decision NOT to hold the re-enactment was announced, SOMEBODY out there in English Canada was mightily upset at being deprived of this event.
There was even an editorial in the National Post urging that Quebec be told “where to get off” that was so virulently anti-Quebec that Alain Dubuc, an editorial writer for La Presse who is very pro-Canada, wrote a letter to the NP to more or less urge them to be a little more moderate.
Paul Gessell in the Globe and Mail a week ago said that the cancellation was the result of “separatist thugs”. Somebody in English Canada is upset, somewhere, it seems to me.
I live in Gatineau, just across the river from Ottawa. And you are not aware that any French-Canadian would know immediately what is meant by la Conquête, probably the central point of their history? The fact that you may not use the term is not the point. The point is whether it is your place to tell Quebecers how to feel about it.