The Plains of Abraham: Let's Try This Again!

This thread is meant as the third installment in a series dealing with the cancellation of a reconstitution of the Battle of the Plains of Abraham that was originally scheduled to be held, on the plains themselves, to commemorate the 250th anniversary of the famous battle. What I intend to do, beyond discussing the à propos of the ill-fated reenactment, is to spark a debate about how Canadians view their history and the very nature of their country.

To recall the facts, sometime last year, a group of military reenactment enthusiasts decided that they would like to reenact the Battle of the Plains of Abraham on the site where it happened in 1759. Their goal was apparently both recreational, them being hobbyists, and educational, to allow Canadians to learn more about an important event of their history. But the talk surrounding the planned event soon turned political, people disagreeing about how to discuss an event the meaning and consequences of Canadians can’t agree on. In particular, the rumoured appearance of actors impersonating generals Montcalm and Wolfe and performing a lighthearted musical comedy number was seen as setting the wrong tone for the commemoration of an event many, especially on the francophone side, see as a dark time in our history with long-standing consequences. Politicians got involved, Quebec premier Jean Charest saying his government wouldn’t have anything to do with the event while federal Heritage minister Josée Verner announced she would attend. The event was ultimately cancelled amid vague threats by radicals. The mood in the anglophone media appeared to be that the cancellation was caused by whining and threats from “separatists”. In place of the reenactment, something called the Moulin à paroles, featuring public personalities reading historically significant texts on the Plains of Abraham for 24 hours was held last week. This also caused controversy over the planned inclusion of the Manifesto of the Front de libération du Québec, read by singer Luck Mervil (link to what appears to be his Myspace page). The Quebec government also dissociated itself from this event. No incidents were reported during the Moulin à paroles; boos were heard when Lord Durham’s 1839 report was due to be read but that was it.

As I’ve said, two threads were started on the SDMB regarding the ill-fated reenactment. [thread=507154]The first one[/thread], by Leaffan, featured an interesting discussion regarding whether the event was appropriate. I tried to explain why it was controversial; participants to the discussion disagreed over whether a 250-year-old event can still have relevance today and over whether the Battle of the Plains of Abraham even was a history-changing event deserving of its mythical status with Canadians. It should be said that some historians disagree that it was all that important. [thread=521583]The second thread[/thread], whose OP was Valteron, started ugly and was ultimately killed by tomndebb after IMO failing to lead to any high-minded discussion. Still, in a sense we could say that Valteron’s thread was actually the more interesting of the two, because in the presence of a less-reasoned debate we got more emotion, and this allowed us to experience the differing ways in which Canadians perceive their history and the role of this battle in it, and what it means about Canadian national identity. This is what I intend to discuss here.

The prevailing viewpoint among francophones, in Quebec at least, is that the Battle of the Plains of Abraham, or more accurately the Conquest, was a dark event that lead to the subjugation of francophones in Canada. There may be disagreements on how dark it was exactly, but it’s definitely not seen as a joyous event. Valteron jumps straight there by comparing the Plains of Abraham to the Battle of the Boyne, a well-known symbol of Protestant supremacy in Ireland that is similarly still a sticky point today. [post=11257750]Later in the thread[/post] he mentions that this battle as a symbol of English supremacy over French in Canada is still alive, among francophones and anglophones alike.

The prevailing viewpoint among anglophones is completely different. To start with, a smaller proportion of them consider the Battle of the Plains of Abraham to be a defining event in Canadian history, or are even aware of it. A 2003 Environics Research survey commissioned by the Association for Canadian Studies showed that 20% of francophones considered the battle the defining moment of Canadian history, compared with only 8% of anglophones, while 22% of anglophones considered Confederation in 1867 to be the defining moment (only 10% of francophones thought so). And among anglophones who are aware of this battle or of the Conquest, the consensus seems to be that it can be seen as the “birth” of Canada by bringing about the cohabitation between the two main language groups. And that it should be seen as a joyous event by all Canadians, including francophones, who were [post=11258078]saved from the Americans[/post] and whose culture was afterwards forever defended by the British Empire and Canada alike. According to Maclean’s editorial from March 2, 2009,

And let’s not forget [post=11258139]this post[/post] by Little Nemo which is so amazing that I will quote it here, as I believe it encapsulates this whole philosophy:

Little Nemo seems to conflate Britons and Canadians, possibly out of the belief, common among anglophones, that Canada “didn’t exist” at the time and was born sometime later, the Confederation being, as I’ve shown above, a popular choice. In any case, his point is that the Conquest was a victory for Britain and ostensibly for Canada which it birthed.

My point is that both of these philosophies, while having facts as their basis, are part of Canada’s national myths and definitely aren’t objectively true. The Conquest-as-symbol of subjugation is based on the indisputable fact that francophones, up until recently, were less educated and less paid than anglophones, and often couldn’t even work in their language, even in Quebec. There were even businesses who just wouldn’t hire French-Canadians. This is of course what happens when you’re not in control of the political and economic power in your country. Even today, the English language is as great if not greater a force of integration for immigrants in places like Montreal. But on the other hand, the Conquest wasn’t all that bad: the liberal nature of British rule compared to ancien régime French rule cannot be denied, and there are still francophones in Canada today. It’s not even a dying culture. These facts are the basis of the anglophone viewpoint, but about that one, we can complain that it’s revisionist history. It pretends that Canadians’ current concern for their bilingual and bicultural/multicultural nature has been a constant in Canadian history. It also ignores actual attempts to assimilate francophones in different places in Canada, the result of which is the fact that French is nearly inexistant in Western Canada and declining elsewhere except in Quebec, as well as the fact that Canada has actually seen very little dialogue between both main official language communities. We still don’t know each other today.

My intent here is to force both communities to think about how they perceive Canadian identity and culture, and make them realize that it is not true that one side is “right” about it and the other wrong, or mislead by elites intent on gaining power, and in need of being set right. As a francophone, I get this attitude from English Canadians, but I don’t believe that it’s only one-way. And of course, if we want to build an actual Canadian identity all Canadians can identify with, we’ll have to understand that there are many ways to see the same events from our history. If you see the Battle of the Plains of Abraham as a joyous event that marks the beginning of a Canada where many communities have existed peacefully and as equals for the last 250 years, a vaudeville theatre with Montcalm and Wolfe impersonators is probably appropriate. If not, then it probably isn’t.

I’m interested in knowing why all I’ve said here is wrong. :wink:

I see the PoA as a small part of an overall World War between two superpowers. It was not a conquest per se. France gave this land away to Britain in the negotiations at the Treaty of Paris in 1763. France had the option of taking back either New France or the Caribbean Islands of Guadeloupe and Martinique. France chose to keep the Caribbean Islands instead of New France.

Is there any anger in Quebec over being abandoned by France for some sun-bleached Islands? :slight_smile:

I don’t think what you’ve said is wrong necessarily, but I do appreciate your efforts in getting Canadian Dopers of all regions to discuss the issue. Hypnagogic Jerk, is there a way you can condense your OP to “25 words or less”? IMHO, such a complex issue certainly deserves the in-depth presentation you have supplied, but it’s a little much to take all at once. Could you condense the issues in such a way that we can perhaps grab and define them more fully? As I implied, I would certainly like to see these issues discussed, and we can always look back to the OP for more definition once we understand what the issues are. But it may be easier for all Dopers (Canadian and non-Canadian) to begin if we have a few brief and pithy issues to sink our teeth into.

Hmm, let’s try. “Anglophone and francophone Canadians tend to see their country’s history in radically different ways. I claim that none of them are wrong, but both viewpoints are basically national myths that aren’t objectively true either. Both sides should be willing to accept the validity of a different approach to Canadian identity.”

That’s actually 50 words, twice what you’re asking. I guess I fail. :wink:

Naw, you did fine. That’s something I’d say that we Canadian Dopers (and other interested parties) can get into. Let me think about it a while, then I’ll post some thoughts. I wiil say for now, thanks for the clarification.

Anglophone? Moi? While I was born in the United States, my family roots are Quebecois going back to the seventeenth century. And on my mother’s side, we’re Irish. If anyone’s entitled to irrational anglo bashing it’s me. But when I hear somebody spouting nonsense, I find I just can’t join in.

Your ethnic roots may be from Quebec, but you’re definitely an American Little Nemo. I was in fact a bit wary of singling you out in my OP, but that’s because you’re American and I actually wanted to describe the English Canadian view of Canadian history. But I figure that Americans like you and tomndebb understand Canada mostly through the English Canadian cultural filter.

Having ancestors from Quebec doesn’t give you any special insight into modern Quebec society. Actually, I find that people who identify as (ethnically) French-Canadian can be the most hostile to Quebec identity, since they view themselves as having successfully integrated their identity into the American (or Canadian) whole, and don’t understand why their peers over there are so intent on remaining separate. I’m not saying that’s your case.

My point was that my natural sympathy would be with the French/Quebecois “side” and I would tend to be biased in their favor. But I’m not going to swallow anything.

In the threads you linked to, one of the posters was making claims which were simply false. His repeated yet false claim that English was the official language of most of Canada was an example of the “facts” he used to prove that francophones were being oppressed.

The Battle of the Plains of Abraham was fought 250 years ago between England and France. To try to turn a re-enactment of that battle into a symbol of some supposed conflict between Ontario and Quebec is foolish.

That’s what the Stanley Cup playoffs are for.

And my point is that I see no reason why this should be the case. Your attachment to Quebec, whichever it is, is mostly folkloric. I live here every day.

The fact that English is the official or common language of most of Canada isn’t an example of oppression, although it’s worth knowing why exactly, for example, francophones are such a small minority in Western Canada today when both anglophones and francophones started colonizing it about the same time. But how can you call this claim “false”?

Okay, sure, but that’s not what I want to talk about. What I want to talk about is the fact that both national groups in Canada (and we could add the First Nations to this as well) see important events of our history in radically different ways. I singled out your post because it showed that you had learned to think about the Battle of the Plains of Abraham in one specific way that happens to be the common way among anglophone Canadians. And you didn’t seem to doubt the correctness of your assessment. My point was that no matter how you view this battle and its consequences for Canadian history, it’s probably not objectively true, but your viewpoint is shaped by our national myths, which happen to conflict depending on which Canadian national group you belong to.

I guess Spoons is right and my OP was much too long, because this thread sunk like a lead zeppelin. If traffic doesn’t pick up I’ll try again some other time, with a more succint OP.

While it’s technically true the war was ended through negotiation, saying “France gave away Quebec” is a bit simplistic. Quebec by the time of the negotiation was utterly, totally British-occupied; even if Britain had given it back, France did not have the capability to defend it if Britain decided they wanted it again. it was not in any meaningful way an option to give it back.

Which would require a team from Ontario to actually make it to the playoffs, though…

[d&r]

::sneaks back in:

Hypnagogic Jerk

I am so miserably bad at history, so I feel that I can’t really contribute to this thread, or perhaps more accurately, I don’t really know how. I know the Battle of the PoA happened - I know nothing more about them (but the plains are a damn fine concert venue!).

I know how I feel about Quebec, about Canada, and about my place in both (and I desperately want it to be both…I don’t want to be forced to choose, which is what this whole nationalism/sovereignty monster is trying to do, IMHO)

I do think anglophones and francophones in this province (nevermind the country!) think vastly differently about the historical events that have made us what we are today, and I think neither group is completely correct on anything, nor are either of them wrong.

I have no idea what to do about any of it.

I feel like your OP is the beginning of a vast sociological research project, and I think I’d be more useful to you if you just gave me a questionnaire to answer!

Well, this thread isn’t about the battle, it’s about Canadian identity. But what I would have liked to see was a discussion of this battle (maybe even with a reenactment) that really respects the role it plays in Canadians’ sense of their identity. And I mean all Canadians, not just some of them whom we assume are the ones who are right. Maybe put the battle in its historical context. That would have been a great opportunity. I guess we missed it.

Maybe, but think about this. Most of “Canadian” identity, or what anglophone Canadians and Americans think of when they think of Canadian identity anyway, means little to me. Once in a while the Canadians on this board assemble in a thread and make jokes about Canada, talk about Canadian culture. Either I don’t understand what they’re talking about, or even if I do, it feels foreign to me. Conversely, what I do feel defines my identity isn’t known at all by other Canadians, and probably wouldn’t be identified as “Canadian” by most people. In this context, it’s not surprising that my attachment will be to Quebec first, and Canada… well, somewhere much below.

I don’t think we should split Canada in several different countries either. But there’s a reason why I and many other people don’t feel this country is really ours. And when it seems that some of its citizens are actively hostile to our identity, you’ll get people who think they’d be better off outside of it.

I agree that it’s complicated. Maybe I should start a series of threads about events in Canadian history, so Canadians from all around the country can discuss what they believe these events mean, and what their consequences were. I believe we could be surprised by what other people think.

But on the other hand, I’m not sure if the majority of Canadians would really be able to accept that there isn’t just one way about our national identity. In Quebec, we’ve basically constructed our own identity without regard to what other Canadians believe, but elsewhere in this country there seems to be this idea that we should be able to unite Canadians under the same founding ideas. I think this idea must first be discarded, but I’m willing to debate it here.

“Official” and “common” are not synonyms in this issue. Official languages are ones that are set by legislation - and they may or may not reflect the common languages that people actually speak. As I pointed out in the linked thread, eight of Canada’s ten provinces do not have any official language. People speak whatever they speak. Of the two provinces with official languages, New Brunswick has French and English as its official languages and Quebec has French as its official language. So, as I wrote before, the only large group of Canadians who are being “oppressed” by their government on language issues are the hundred of thousands of non-French speakers in Quebec.

As for the prevalence of French in Western Canada, it’s true most of the people in Alberta or Manitoba don’t speak French. But most of the people in Argentina and Poland and Korea don’t speak French either. A lack of French speakers can be a matter of demographics not oppression.

Actually, the very earliest European settlers in the West were largely French, which population is mostly to be found at present in the Metis community, though other pockets of non-Metis francophones do exist - most notably St. Boniface in Winnipeg and various other small communities around that city. Western Canadians mostly speak English because the large-scale settling via homesteading was organized by the largely anglophone federal government. No real mystery there.

Once again, that’s English-Canadian “everybody knows” that isn’t accurate. Most Canadian provinces don’t have an official language, but you can’t communicate with the provincial government in any language you want either. Though I’ve never had to correspond with the Nova Scotian or Albertan government, I’d assume English is the only language I could be certain to be served in. (Maybe BC offers Chinese in some places.) New Brunswick I’m quite certain offers service in both English or French, and Quebec offers service in English in most cases. It’s possible that they’re not required to, which is of course what “official language” means, but that doesn’t mean they won’t do it anyway if the demand is there. But in any case, the federal government has also decided to get into the official language business, and requires the provinces offer some services in both pan-Canadian official languages. Offering official language minorities primary and secondary education in their language is an example of this.

Official language has of course no bearing at all over people’s right to “speak whatever they speak”. That’s freedom of speech.

Now, of course, we’re straying pretty far from the subject in discussion, but this little side conversation between *Little Nemo and I should at least show the accuracy of my main point, namely that what Canadians “know” about their country is often, if not actually untrue, at least strongly ideologically slanted. And yet again, I am including all Canadians, from all national groups, in this statement.

Nitpick: Five superpowers.

I’ll admit that I’ve never had to communicate with the Alberta government in French; but as an Alberta resident, I’ve had to consult its website more than a few times. It appears that communicating with the Alberta government in French may not be as impossible as it sounds, at least in regards to certain areas. From the Alberta government website:

I’d assume “linguistically appropriate services” would indicate that some government services are provided in French; and I’d also assume the phrase “where numbers and/or demand warrant” would apply. In other words; yes, you could be certain to be served in English anywhere in Alberta, but you may also be able to be served in French in Alberta in selected places and/or for selected services.

Right. So in other words, the Albertan government’s official language policy isn’t so different from the Quebec government’s: they both offer services in the province’s main language (English or French), but can also use other languages where the numbers warrant it. Alberta not having declared an official language doesn’t change a thing.

My problem was with Little Nemo’s assertions that no official language means that “[p]eople speak whatever they speak” (yes, but it’s also true when there is an official language; the official language is just the one in which you are guaranteed to be able to communicate with the government) and that anglophone Quebecers are being “oppressed”. Reasonable people can of course disagree about language policy in Canada in Quebec, and this could be the subject of a long discussion, but the simple fact that French is the official language of Quebec doesn’t come anywhere near “oppression”, especially when the other provinces do the same, whether they formally declare it or not.

Geez, I don’t understand what they are talking about, either. I also don’t know what you are talking about. What is an ‘identity’?
Regarding culture: I asked this in at least one of the other threads. What do you do that is any different than what I do on a regular basis other than speak French? You get up, go to work, come home have dinner and maybe go out with a couple of friends. You speak French, I speak English. Nothing else is any different at all. Both our cultures are products of the industrialized western world. Any differences are minimal.

Why? What benefit is there to doing this? There is nothing I can do that will make you perceive things any different than you do now. The only time I think about stuff like this is when it is brought up by posturing politicians, or on the SD. Why is it a concern to you?
Maybe that is the difference in our cultures. Some of us look to the future, others stay locked in the past rehashing unimportant things. I don’t know.

I’m still utterly baffled as to what you want this conversation to be about. You say

“my main point, namely that what Canadians “know” about their country is often, if not actually untrue, [is] at least strongly ideologically slanted. And yet again, I am including all Canadians, from all national groups, in this statement.”

So you clearly feel that the Québecois “knowledge” about their country (and province) is also sometimes untrue and/or strongly ideologically slanted. I agree with that, and I feel that politicians use this to their advantage. So pretty much your point here is that we are all the same?

And now there’s the language tangent, about whether anglophones are being “oppressed” in Québec. I don’t think they are more oppressed than francophones are in most of the rest of the country, but a lot of Québecois do feel that they are oppressed in the ROC, or at least, that’s what some of them seem to bitch about when they visit Toronto! So both sides are playing pretty much the same card, aren’t they? Again, we’re all the same.

So…now what?

It’s true that there is no unique Canadian identity, and I can see how you struggle to relate to whatever you perceive as being the anglo identity as a francophone Quebecker, but may I also point out that there is no unique Québec identity either? Can you honestly tell me that, other than a common language, you have much in common with someone who has lived their whole life in St-Pit-de-Nowhere, Québec, or that you know what it’s like to be born and raised in Outremont, or Lennoxville, or Gaspé or Kuujjuaq?

I don’t know what it’s like to be from anywhere other than where I’ve lived, and even then, it’s not like I have a shared identity with everyone in those cities, or even neighbourhoods. And yet, I still identify as a Canadian, and I still identify as a Québecoise, and I still identify as a Montrealer, and have a split personality by also identifying with Sherbrooke/Lennox and Hamilton, Ontario.

I have no idea why you lump Americans into the equation when you talk about the “anglophone Canadian identity”. Just because we speak English, doesn’t mean we share an identity with the USA, in exactly the same way that your national identity has fuck-all to do with France.

I’m just so confused about what you want out of this thread - is it how we feel to be Canadian? Trying to find differences between that and how it feels to be from Québec (not much different, really, IMHO!)? Trying to discuss how history is taught to both cultures, and trying to find the errors/biases/differences? Trying to discuss how language should fit into the national landscape?

Maybe I’m just too tired (a near certainty today) and not well-versed enough in any of this to truly discuss or debate anything, but I keep coming back here because I feel that this thread could be quite interesting if I could only figure out what it’s about! :slight_smile: