To My Dog's Vet: No, I don't have to buy HeartGuard from you!

The BBQ Pit
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Heartworm prevention is sold as a 30-day thing for a combination of reasons. Mostly, a lot of people have an easier time remembering to do something at the same time every month than remembering to do something every six weeks, so dogs are more likely to get the stuff on a routine basis. In addition, if somebody does forget and is a week or two late (and it happens, quite a lot), they’re still on continuous coverage. Beyond that, and you’re starting to get into the range of needing to retest, although a lot of vets will tell you it’s okay to miss up to a month.

Hooch, I’m not sure that the concentration of ivermectin sold at feed stores does vary from brand to brand, but I do know that most liquid medications are available in varying concentrations. I saw a tech at a mixed practice damn near kill a dog one time in just that sort of situation. We had two different concentrations of the same drug, one for the small animals and one for the horses, and she grabbed the wrong bottle, pulled up the volume written on the chart, and gave the poor critter 10x the dose he was supposed to get. The dog pulled through, thank God, but that was one hell of a bad scene. And it’s an easy enough mistake to make if you’re not paying close attention; I’ve come damn close to doing the exact same thing a dozen times.

I also know that the injectable ivermectin we used to keep around had its dosages listed in volume per hundred pounds. Since most dogs don’t weigh hundreds of pounds, using this stuff in dogs requires some conversions. (Also, the dosage per pound tends to vary between species for some drugs, which is another reason you need to speak with your vet.) All it takes is one error in calculation to massively overdose an animal, and I’ll tell you from personal experience that EVERYBODY makes those sorts of mathematical errors once in a while.

I’m not saying you shouldn’t do it, I’m saying you need to be very careful about it. When you’re not very careful about drug, concentration, dosage, and route, really bad things can happen.

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CrazyCatLady-our vet told my mother that the Hartz flea stuff (as opposed to Advantage) can also cause seizures in animals, when she asked about it. My aunt was using it for her dog (-an daschund/beagle mix who-surprise surprise!-was prone to seizures!) and reccomended it as being cheaper.

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CrazyCatLady: Point taken. The Ivermectin I find in liquid is listed as a 1% solution. I just went to the feed store and the brand name stuff, Ivermec, was also 1%. I will be sure and always check the solution mixture in the future but it will be a long time before I run out as I give my dogs less the 1 cc per dosage. I do also realize that products such as Heartgaurd are according to body weight but the weight range has a variance of about 25 pounds, i.e. 25-50 lbs. As far as I know the pill for larger dogs is for dogs 50 lbs. or larger. So I guess a 50 lb. dog would get the same pill as a 100 lb. dog. I’m not exactly sure. The largest may actually say 100 lbs. or more. I’m going to contact Merial again and see if they can tell me the amount of Ivermectin in each weight size. That should tell me a lot.

And once more, if you are buying your pets meds online to save a few bucks beware that their supply of those products is suspicious. It is defintely NOT Merial.

Two of my dogs are still puppies, 11 months & 8 months and I’m considering taking 2 of the 3 off the Ivermectin because they are different breeds then my other dog. My breeder has been raising American Pit Bull Terriers for years and I feel safe with his advice of 1/10 cc per 5 lbs. body weight at least for that particular dog. I noticed in the reading I did that Collies are known to have problems with the Ivermectin but my other dogs are a Red Bone Hound and a Staffordshire Terrier.

By the way, I give it orally as I was instructed by my breeder. I found some interesting facts on what to look for as far as toxicity and will watch for signs. And I will will also be consulting with my vet this week.

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Yes, pyrethrin (the active ingredient in BioSpot) overdose causes neurological symptoms, most commonly tremoring, excessive salivation, seizures, and acute death. (That last term has always amused me for some morbid reason. I always want to ask, “What, as opposed to chronic death?” Yes, I realize that it’s not really all that funny and that I’m pathetically easy to amuse. I still always want to say it, though.)

Of course, seizures can be caused by all sorts of things. Head injury, brain tumor, hypoglycemia, various toxicities, and epilepsy are the ones that spring immediately to mind. If your aunt’s dog wasn’t having seizures in conjunction with her applying the BioSpot (if an animal’s going to react, it usually happens within 12 hours or so), and he was recovering from them without any intervention (pyrethrin toxicities tend to be progressive if left untreated), they probably weren’t due to the pyrethrins.

And in terms of retail cost per dose, she’s right. It is cheaper than Frontline. BioSpot is something ridiculous like $3 for five doses, while Frontline is somewhere in the neighborhood of $10/dose. In the very, very short term, you’d be a fool to buy Frontline instead of BioSpot. But when you factor in the number of doses you need to get the same amount of protection, flea baths and dips (it boggles my mind that people would pay $30 for a dip that won’t keep the dog from getting reinfested, but balk at paying $30 for three months of Frontline, even after we ran the numbers for them), stuff to get the fleas out of your carpets and furniture, visits to the vet for itchy skin, emergency trips to the vet for toxicity, etc., BioSpot winds up costing way, way more than Frontline for most people. And the dog still has fleas.

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I’m on the edge of being late for work, but I simply have to say this.

Hooch, if you’re giving that pit bull parvo vaccines from the feed store on the advice of your breeder, I’m going to be forced to hunt you both down and kick your butts.

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CrazyCatLady Absolutely not! Rabies and all other shots I go to the vet for. By the way he did tell me if I do purchase and administer the other shots to NOT get them from a feed store because they may not have been handled correctly (kept regrigerated). However, he did say getting them from a drug store should be fine. In this state I can buy the rabies shot from the feed store as well as a drug store but it is not officially sanctioned or recognized by the state and in order to get a rabies certificate it has to be done by a vet. My vet also said to not self administer rabies shots. So, I don’t.

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I beg to differ. Based on Una Persson’s talk with a Merial representative, she posted this:

It is entirely possible (and is, in fact, highly probable) that 1800PedMeds is purchasing lots of Merial products from licensed vets and/or distributors.

Since 1800PetMeds.com has FrontLine and HeartGuard, both trademarked Merial products, on the front page of their Web site, I think it’s safe to say it’s the official Merial product. 1800PetMeds is a publicly traded company (Symbol: PETS on NASDAQ), and I seriously doubt they’d blatantly violate trademarks and knowingly sell pirated or illegally obtained medicine as a standard function of their business model. Just because they didn’t buy it from Merial doesn’t mean they didn’t obtain it legitimately.

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Oops, one more thing! I had no idea pyrethrin was bad or could kill my animal. Although, the other day when I bathed them I noticed the drooling started and it was quite profuse as I had to leave the shampoo on for about 5 minutes. I use Adam’s flea spray and shampoo which contains pyrethrin as the active ingredient. Plus it smells so good after it’s been on a little while. The spray I use as a maintence to kill and repel fleas, ticks, etc. Frontline is expensive but I don’t mind spending the money if it is actually worth it and saves me from having to use a spray too. Plus I have a coupon for buy 3 get 1 free at a local pet store (btw-also a licensed vet clinic). Adam’s is not cheap as far as sprays go. My dogs are outside when I am working but I bring them in when I come home and I do not want fleas in my house. Does the frontline repel as well or better then sprays do? Do I have to use it in conjunction with sprays?

A great debt of gratitude to CrazyCatLady for her patience and well delivered responses.

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Sauron: Well the representative I spoke to with Merial told me something totally different then what they told Una.

Your pet, your call.

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It wouldn’t be the first time that the right hand of a corporate entity didn’t tell the left hand what was going on.

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You know, I’ve tried to stay out of this little Pit fight but somehow people keep dragging me back in.

Here is exactly what you posted in your inaugural post:

Here is what I posted:

There is no functional difference between our two claims. Your claim that I am wrong is completely in opposition with what you yourself posted. In fact, what we have above is so close that continued claims that there is a “difference” are baffling and suspicious.

I said that they did NOT sell to 1800PetMeds. That is what you said. Where is the difference?

I said they only sell to licensed vets and licensed veterinary sales avenues. Where is the difference?

For you to claim there is a difference, you need some backing to assert that illegality exists. Thus far in this thread, there have been claims of “illicit” and “illegal” but absolutely no proof whatsoever. In fact, people might want to consider whether or not it’s possible for continued claims of corporations engaging in illegal drug sales with no proof whatsoever presented to start to become libel.

But that aside, why exactly are you continuing to proclaim that CrazyCatLaady is “100% right” when what I posted is right in line with what you said? And where is the proof of illegality or illicit sales? Cite?

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Pyrethrins aren’t inherently bad, and they’re generally safe (if not terribly effective) in the relatively low concentrations found in sprays and shampoos. Those spot-on treatments, though, are more concentrated, and instead of being applied to the fur, they’re put directly on the skin. This allows the animal to absorb quite a lot more, and damn near anything can kill you if you absorb enough of it.

Frontline is, quite honestly, the most amazing flea stuff I’ve ever seen in my life. You put it on the skin between the shoulder blades (at the base of the skull for cats, who are able to lick between their shoulder blades), and that’s it. The fleas currently on the animal die within 24 hours, and it continues to kill any fleas that get on the animal for 30-90 days. Any fleas in the house will be drawn to the animals as preferential hosts (I don’t remember exactly why fleas like dogs better than humans, but it seems like it’s related to their higher body temp), so any fleas in your carpet or whatever bite the dog and drop dead. You don’t need any medicated shampoos or sprays, and if you’re patient enough, you don’t need bombs or anything to deal with fleas in your house. You can just wait for them to all migrate to the dog and let the Frontline kill them. The new formulation of Frontline, Frontline Plus, has an insect growth regulator in it, so it gets the eggs and juvenile forms, too.

Of course, if you wait until the fleas are in your carpets, your couch, and your mattress before you start the Frontline, like the guy who used to live next door to Dr.J, you’ll want to go on and use a bomb. (Seriously, the fleas were coming through the wall and getting on poor Moo, and the neighbor had to move out for a while because he couldn’t sleep in his own bed without being eaten alive. I started his cat on Frontline and got him a fogger with an IGR, and AFAIK he never had another speck of trouble with fleas.)

If your dogs are outside a lot, you’ll still want to bathe them for the odor factor, but you can use any sort of inexpensive non-medicated shampoo unless your dogs have skin issues. I like shampoos with oatmeal in them, to help moisturize the skin and coat. You want to wait at least 2 days between bathing and applying Frontline for maximal absorption.

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I recently moved to Kentucky with my 6 dogs and 8 horses from NY.What a mistake! I have been taken advantage of by the Vets here right from the start.My first dog who is 13 now has kidney failure stage4 we have been caring for her nightly subcueing her flushing her kidneys.She is happy,frisky,alert and right now thriving while the Vets wanted her to be euthanized 3 months ago.(just another fee grabbing tactic)after she spent 3 days at $ 1000.00 in their office.After reading and speaking to my regular Vet which is 4 states away we got her stabilized.I asked the Vet in Kentucky how much it would be to clean all 6 dogs teeth,they came back with a price of $400.00 each,the last dental I did on them was 135.00 each,they have gotten their teeth done every 6 months their whole life sometimes by the same Vet sometimes by others and was never more than 150.00.As to buying pharmaceuticals from Vets beware,they are grossly overpriced (ripoff)My kidney failing dog needed flagyll to stop diahrea .I called the Vet they said come down and pick up pills for her.I went they charged me 11.50 for 3 1/2 pills.Flagyll is .69 cents a pill and thats with a profit margine built in.When I called them on it(that was the final straw) they refused to see my dog anymore.So YES there is a few Vets that will milk their clients knowing how much their dogs are loved.They also are predjudice if you are not from here you will be definately taken advantage of !After all what are the alternatives.This does not only apply to Vets unfortunately…

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I’ll resist the dog-zombie opportunity and just remind everyone that this is an old thread.

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Well it might be a good way to find out how the story ended after 8 years. Sadly I am going to presume Buddy is no longer with us.

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What intelligent, witty posts I made 8 years ago.

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Yeah, that was what jumped out at me too.

Our vet would test our dog twice/year if they could, I think. But I live in GA, where there are LOTS of mosquitos. We give heartworm preventative year-round. Even so, the dog gets tested a minimum of once/year or we don’t get heartworm refills.

OTOH, the same vet has been good about faxing prescriptions to an online company for the pancreatic supplement my Bouncer took for most of his life. We also got Bouncer’s thyroid meds from the online company as well. That saved us a ton of $$ (on the pancreatic supplement, not so much on the Soloxine) over the 9 years or so he had to have it.

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I hate to add to a zombie thread but I must add this: Do NOT, I repeat DO NOT use over the counter flea drops containing pyrethins on cats or kittens. The damned things are dangerous, can be fatal and don’t fucking work.

Google “Tiny Timmy” if you are interested in reading about the neurological damage caused to one kitten treated with that crap. His owners - who have spent a buttload of money on him - are fighting the good fight trying to get the stuff outlawed.

As for the heartworm debate - Heartgard prevents intestinal parasites, also. It’s a good thing to use year round, especially if there are any mosquitoes around.

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Ye gods, I have GOT to start looking more closely at dates on these posts. Sorry.

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OTOH, the stuff is poison - supposedly not to dogs but I don’t really trust how much testing is done on pet products and have seen many go by the wayside after they have been proved to be harmful (see “Tiny Timmy”). I’ve had dogs & cats for over 40 years and can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I’ve used heartworm medication, yet the vets here push it like crazy. And a monthly preventative for intestinal parasites? Talk about overkill.